Tahoe/Yukon Headlight Information Thread

Sup!

Fair warning, the following will be tldr for some, but I thought it would be useful to have a lighting and HID information thread for folks to refer to before deciding on a course of action.

Before I begin, a few caveats …

1. This is all the information I have learned through my experiences going from stock, to ebay aftermarket housings, and eventually to two retrofits (links in sig), plus all the research I have done, and from reading on hid planet.com for over a year.
2. There's a lot more that i don't know, and I am by no means an 'expert' … for example I know nothing of wiring/harnessing nor do I know how to physically install a retrofit, although I have observed quite a few being created.
3. I'm not going to get into a convo about how you never get flashed with your PnP kit in your reflector housings. First of all glaring everywhere isn't the same as having your high beams on, some people get flashed some don't. As it will become clear, getting flashed is but one of many reasons not to use PnP kits.
4. ALL modifications to OEM stock lighting, except for replacing like for like specified bulbs, are illegal … that goes for the person sporting a 20000K PnP kit to the person with a properly installed $1500 retrofit with full oem hardware. The only difference is that the latter is less likely to draw any more attention to itself than any other oem housing.
5. Some of this info is specific to NNBS trucks, some is applicable to all vehicles.

That noted …

So you hear of this thing called High Intensity Discharge lighting, you look in the mirror, you say to yourself "I'm a high intensity kinda guy, that sounds like something I ought to pimp" … it's understandable, and it's good marketing, after all if it were called Lethargic Bulb Syndrome there'd hardly be a need for this thread and our eyes would likely be spared from tens of thousands of cheap Chinese kits on the road.

Here's some basic information that one should take the time to read through:

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?44158-HID-plug-n-play-fails-govt-test

http://www.hidretrofits.com/

The hardware specific information on the last link is somewhat outdated as there now are more projector, bulb, and shroud options … I will get into this in a bit.


Your stock halogen setup:

Yuck, it's soooo feeble and boring!

Actually not really.

What many folks don't realize, is the amount of technology/R&D that goes into designing and creating halogen headlamps and how intricate and complicated they really are. As opposed to HID lighting, halogen lighting has been decades in development, thoroughly tested, and car manufacturers have a firm grasp on its capacities and limitations. One might think that it is a simple task of having a reflector and slapping a bulb into it, but a great deal more than that has gone into it in order to create a light that is both highly functional for the driver and minimizes adverse consequences for surrounding traffic. Every little flute on the lens or dimple on the reflector has a well defined purpose.

Every halogen housing is designed to work with its specific halogen bulb because differently designated halogen bulbs are never the same bulb with just a different base. Some bulbs like H11 have shields at their tips, some like the H13 don't and solely rely on a cap in the headlight housing itself … but bottom line, H designated bulbs are not interchangeable, they each have their optical characteristics meant to complement the housing in which they are meant to reside, especially those that are low beam only.

Low beam halogen bulbs, as opposed to HID bulbs, project light by reflecting it backwards onto the reflector inside the housing, which in turn projects the light forward in front of the vehicle. This will of course be the fundamental reason discussed later as to why HID bulbs are both inefficient and egregious in halogen reflector housings.

As far as your options to improve the stock bulbs that come on your truck, depending on what you define as 'improve,' you have a few options.

There are many oem spec aftermarket bulbs by companies such as Sylvania/Osram, Hella/Optilux, Philips, etc, that will improve output intensity over stock bulbs. Not by much mind you because parameters are set by wattage requirements and by the inherent limitations of the technology itself. Keep in mind that much of this is a zero sum equation, meaning that if you increase something on one end something gets sacrificed on the other. In this case, by keeping all the DOT/OEM specs consistent, the price one pays for getting a bulb which puts out more lumens, is usually shorter bulb life.

Some define 'improved output' as a whiter light. Halogen bulbs within required specs cannot burn white and they will always have the yellowish hue. The way manufacturers make them illuminate whiter is by coating the bulbs in different shades of blue. This is somewhat effective in making the light whiter but the blue coating will decrease lumens … again, it's that zero sum thing.

So the best aftermarket non coated bulbs will increase intensity but keep color the same as oem, the blue coated ones will make the like whiter but any increase in output will likely be lost through the coating. So as noted, it really depends on what 'improved' means to you.

There are 'over-wattage off road' aftermarket halogen bulbs available. I don't know much about them, but they will obviously exceed lumen/glare restrictions, and my understanding is that they may have damaging consequences to the housing, socket, and harness due to the higher heat they generate.

One last note about halogen lighting …

Halogen lighting is easier on the eyes, especially on long drives. It has much better ambient lighting characteristics as the light will 'bleed' over a much larger area, as opposed to HID lighting which is highly focused and has very little 'bleed' over the cutoff. Halogen color temperature is close to optimal for night sight and for eye stress, hence why most oem HID color specs try to emulate this temperature. This is why more people that one would think (especially commercial drivers, older drivers, and drivers with sensitive eyes), actually prefer halogen illumination over HID.


OEM Halogen Projectors

OEM halogen projectors are a relatively new technology. They are implemented because they can give car manufacturers the freedom to design more attractive and smaller housings (often emulating HID housings), whilst keeping halogen illumination. However despite the exterior similarities to HID projectors, they are specifically designed with halogen optics in mind, including how they disperse the light, heat tolerances inside the projector/harness/socket, etc.

The only advantage in owning a vehicle which came with such a setup is that a halogen projector is likely (but not sure) to be easier to swap for an HID one in the course of a retrofit.

Putting an HID bulb in a halogen projector is not likely to have adverse consequences to surrounding traffic, it'll most likely result in poor output and may damage the housing components.

Which brings us to …

Aftermarket 'Projector' Housings (ebay specials)

So you like a little rice with that truck, and think that an aftermarket projector housing (Spyder/Depo/etc) will set that off for you?
You use the google and come across something that looks similar to this:



Not only does that look spiffy, but the description includes the word projector.
Not only that, but some vendors are super enough to attach an HID kit to them.
Problem solved, I have pwnd stupid GM and their stupid halogens and got myself them cool HIDs.

Actually no.

What you got there is pieces of shit.

NONE, and I really mean NONE of these so called projectors are meant for HID bulbs, and few if any have any of the required high quality optics to even function safely as halogen projectors … in fact most are 'fauxjectors' which is basically just molded plastic emulating the shape of a projector.

They are garbage and will likely end up in the trash … at least hat's where mine ended up after I tried a set of them.

On my truck:



What did the output look like?



Some are worse, some a tiny bit better, but light on the road is catastrophic and highly dangerous, as there's practically none.

They actually get worse with HIDs in them because., although they are poorly designed for halogens, they are outright allergic to HIDs.
Not to mention the led/ccfl/halo hardware is of poor quality and will fail sooner rather than later.

Not much more can be said bout them, just pass.

* A note for NBS trucks. Out of pure coincidence, it has been observed that Depo aftermarket projector housings for NBS housings actually take well to HID bulbs, and have a respectable cutoff and beam pattern. It is indeed a coincidence because it isn't like this is uniform to all Depo housings across model lines. Nevertheless, the NBS folks have a mid-range solution residing between halogen bulbs and a full HID retrofit, that us NNBSers don't. Therefore we hate them.

** Sometimes people see DOT approved on a component or housing and assume it means they can use it at will. Like I mentioned earlier, modifying components in headlamps, even if all the new ones are DOT approved, is illegal. But more importantly there's a great degree of confusion about what DOT approved means. The DOT in fact approves nothing. Manufacturers have a set of guidelines set by the NHTSA, it is the manufacturers who are responsible for self certifying that said components meet those requirements. When they do they stamp DOT on them. The guvmint does random testing and follows up when things fail their tests, but that's it. Can you trust that some Chinese no name company has gone through the trouble and expense to meet and certify these requirements? Unlikely but maybe. But even if they have, it'll be for halogen bulbs and not HIDs.

http://fmvss108.tripod.com/fmvss108text.htm

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/glare.html



HID Lighting


HID Plug n Play kits

If you took the time to read the links I posted at the start of this post, I need not elaborate too much as to the plethora of reasons these are a poor choice.

If you would like to observe how most vehicles with PnP kits look to oncoming traffic, you can peruse the 150 or so pages on this thread at your leisure: http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?37924-the-hid-fail-gallery

The optical science/physics is beyond dispute, you WILL glare, you WILL NOT get much more useful light on the road since without an appropriate confining projector most of the light will dispersed (hence the glare), and you are increasing your chances of getting ticketed for illegal lighting.

Furthermore:

HID hardware is very precise and has minute tolerances,. Any non OEM HID lighting component will be plagued by inferior design, inferior quality control, sub-par wiring, in the case of bulbs and ballasts will generate much more heat than their OEM counterparts. That is why OEM hardware is expensive, both as independent parts or as a Xenon option on a vehicle. Optical design, quality control, and adhesion to regional legal specifications, are strictly and meticulously maintained.

Using your round of the mill Chinese mass produced components you will likely suffer part failure, and the chances of damaging OEM components severely increases.

Is it worth taking a shot?

I dunno, at less than $100 for a kit in a pretty box, many seem to think so. And if you're an 'it's all about me and funk everyone around me' kinda person then this may indeed be the right solution for you.

It's a price trap to be honest … if you've talked yourself into needing HIDs and either can't afford or are unwilling to pay for a retrofit, then this becomes the default solution. Never mind that I've observed meny a folk spending thousands on rims and other mods and cry pauper when it comes to their lighting. Meh …

A word on fog lights ...

As many of you have discovered, a 35W PnP kit will sooner or later melt your fog housings.
For some the remedy to this is using 25W ballasts.
Whereas that may indeed save your housings, please note that they will still glare … not the same degree as headlamps but it still is what it is.

HID Retrofits

A retrofit is exactly what one can deduce it means … it is taking a HID specific projector (OEM or aftermarket/replica) and all associated components (shroud, bulb, lens, ballast, harness), and retrofitting them into a non HID housing.

The idea is to safely duplicate what car manufacturers specify as their own HID lighting.

HID bulbs are confined into a projector armed with the fabrication and optics required to project a functional beam of light onto the road, with a small amount of intentional 'bleed' (squirrel finders) to illuminate road signs.

There are two types of HID components available, OEM and aftermarket. OEM components are always preferred because they are designed (at very high expense) by the manufacturers to be functional and highly effective for the full life of the vehicle for which they were originally destined. Aftermarket/OEM Replica projectors (Morimoto/FX-R/EvoX) have vastly improved, and are often a less expensive choice, and they oft can be the only choice where space is highly restricted.

A retrofit is relatively expensive … this not only is because of the cost of the hardware itself, but because it is labor intensive high precision work requiring specialist skills. One, if highly fluent with automotive component installation, can certainly undertake a retrofit themselves as opposed to going to a specialist, but be warned that trial and error mistakes can prove extremely costly. Hence why i personally have had every retrofit installed by a professional with my truck there in person. There are several retrofitters who will produce a long distance retro for you, this is the only solution for those who don't happen to have one near them. If qualified a retrofitter can come close to duplicating what he would, had he had your vehicle there in person … however without the benefit of the housings sitting on the truck while the work is being done, you will likely get rotational and other alignment discrepancies. The result will be equally functional, just not as precise and even as many would prefer.

Projectors can either be 'hard' or 'soft' mounted onto the housing. Soft mounting is with custom brackets and hard mounting is with JB Weld. There are some pros and cons to each method, but if applied correctly, both can be equally effective.

There are too many oem and aftermarket projectors to get into the characteristics of every single one, I'm happy to answer questions about specific ones if one asks, but HIDPlanet is a much better resource for such information than my head brain.

When it comes to our specific trucks ….

NNBS Yukons, since they don't have separate high and low beam sections, NEED to use bi-xenon projectors to have functional lighting. The highest rated OEM B-X projectors are the 2010+ Lexus RX-350, the 04-08 Acura TL, and the Lexus LS-460 B-X. The 460s won't fit because of their insane overall size, the TLs are amazing projectors that will fit but have a strange shape that no off the shelf shroud will completely cover, hence some custom shrouding/fabrication has to be done to completely hide the projector. The 350 is what I went with. However pretty much every bi-xenon projector out there except for the 460 will fit NNBS Yukon housings. Hence choice comes down to budget and preferred beam characteristics.

NNBS Tahoes are a lot more complicated. There are two vertical metal frame beams that reside almost exactly behind each of the two reflectors restricting the size of the projectors that can fit between the headlamp housing and the beams. On the Yukons the reflector is between those beams hence why size isn't an issue. Furthermore, on Tahoe housings you have multiple options.

1. Low beam only projector in the low beam section and leave all else unchanged.
2. Fit a small B-X projector like the Mini H1 or the FX-R in the low beam section and have Xenon lows and both halogen and xenon highs.
3. Quad retrofit where you install two b-x projectors in each housing.

Option 1 is the simplest and most elegant and will give you HID output with the least amount of labor and moving parts. If you can afford an S2000 oem projector ($300 approx for a mint set), then you will likely have the best low beam output possible. The S2000s are incredible projectors with what many considered unsurpassed low beam output. Having recently done some estimation relative to their size compared to projectors like the FX-R that I know fit in the Tahoe low beam, I'm all but certain they will fit. But like all things retro one has to actually do it to know for sure. There are other low beam only projector options out there as well, pending fitment confirmation.

Option 2 makes sense for those who make a lot of use of their high beam and feel that having both a halogen and HID high beam, or for those who don't want to drop $$$ on high end low beam only projectors. More often than not that results in a Morimoto Mini H1 projector or sometimes in an FX-R projector. The latter is a much tighter squeeze, resulting in the projector lens being right up against the housing lens, but it has the advantage over the Mini H1 insofar as superior output, less fabrication/durability issues, and ability to use OEM D2S bulbs as opposed to rebased aftermarket bulbs.

A couple of things to consider when using a MH1 setup on these trucks. One of the main characteristics of this projector is its relatively high amount of foreground lighting … meaning that a lot of the light gets projected in front of the vehicle. This issue get exasperated because of the higher rake required when installing projector on the high mounting point of an SUV, as the beam is naturally angled at a more sever pitch so as not to blind oncoming traffic. This means that of all the available projectors, the MH1 has the shortest 'throw.' This becomes most obvious in real life when driving at high speed in unlit country roads, where when the high beam isn't engaged, it can actually get rather disconcerting … it's almost a non issue if one does most of their driving in urban and suburban environments.

Another issue of the MH1 is that it historically has had stick solenoid/shield issues. Basically when one goes from high to low the shield will come down less than a mm short. It doesn't sound like much, but so minute are the tolerances that this will result in a yellow flare at the cutoff. It doesn't affect output but it's ugly. I had two projectors with this problem out of the four in my quad retro. This issue is supposedly resolved in the newest version V, but they haven't been out long enough to know for sure.

Last, MH1s use rebased H1 bulbs which no OEM bulb company manufactures. Like all H designated HID bulbs, they are essentially an HID capsule attached to a halogen base. Their quality and optics cannot compare to OEM bulbs, and you're going to get a higher degree of defects and inconsistencies between bulbs. It's just the nature of the beast, Morimoto do a decent job but they are still rebased bulbs made in some low quality controlled Chinese factory which likely makes a whole bunch of other bulbs that don't say Morimoto on them.

But again, we're taking about an entry point aftermarket b-x projector used in conjunction with entry point components like bulbs and ballasts. It'll still be highly effective, just not as good as OEM components.

Option 3 Trust me, just don't do it.

Very complicated, inner frame beam has to be cut to fit the inner projector, twice as many components to buy, retrofit, and potentially fail, and hardly any more usable light on the road.

Other than it looking badass, there's little to no point in doing it.

Plus it accentuates what is already the most significant drawback of HID lighting and MH1s in particular … namely what happens when the human eye when it tries to adjust at the same time to both a highly lit and a black area in front of it without transition. The eyes adapt to light or darkness, it is impossible for them to do both at the same time. With HID lighting that is exactly the circumstance you present them with. When you double the light in front of you through quads, the darkness above the cutoff literally becomes deep space darkness. This isn't an issue in the city or in the suburbs, but it becomes downright dangerous when you're in the middle of nowhere. All you see is in front of the truck and nothing else. Paradoxically, when I had that situation when the least amount of ambient light was present, I would pull the fuse to turn off the inner projectors to create less contrast in order to see more … thus less light equalled better visibility.

That's why HID experts always say that the eyes cannot be trusted to evaluate what is proper lighting. They see more light and think this is better. But in driving conditions you actually need to see outlines of stuff around your light, doubling the output with MH1 quads doesn't allow for it.

That's in general terms the info that applies to our trucks … you can of course ask me for clarification or further details.

A couple of last points regarding HID lighting and retrofits:

1. Although no OEM ballast manufacturer makes ballasts for on road use greater than 35W, 50/55W aftermarket ballasts are widely available. First of all you must keep in mind the wattage specs on the ballast aren't precise. OEM ballasts always run a few watts short of their spec, aftermarket ballasts much more so. Aftermarket ballasts are plagued by the same quality control issues as aftermarket bulbs, so again you run a higher chance of failure or worse. 50/55W aftermarket ballasts will run A LOT hotter and can produce the exact same issue as having quads if combined with the wrong projector. Very few aftermarket projectors can handle that much wattage, in fact TRS will not sell you their MH1s with anything above a 35W ballast. Even some OEM projectors cannot handle 50W, especially if one uses non OEM bulbs, and their bowls will flake away.

2. Color temperature/Kelvin are highly subjective. OEM bulb manufacturers have established baselines from which they extrapolate color. OEM specs have historically been pegged at 4300K which look white when looking at the projector but has a slight warm tint on the road. Again, much research had gone into establishing that that color is the most effective for night sight, tires the eyes the least, and puts out the most lumens. Philips started manufacturing Ultinon bulbs a few years ago which are much bluer and they were highly controversial. They were accepted by some car manufacturers whilst acknowledging that lumens were lost. Most recently Osram came out with their CBI line of bulbs (Cool blue Intense) which after about 20hrs use settle at around 5000K. They are the first HID bulb that I know of to manage this kelvin rating whilst retaining 4300K oem lumen output … in fact some say that they surpass all OEM bulbs but for the other recently released Osram bulbs called SVS. The SVS and CBI have the highest lumen output at 4300K and 5000K respectively, they also cost about $180 a set.

When you see pictures of color charts when people are trying to sell you aftermarket bulbs, believe those representations at your peril. There is no worldwide standard for what K is what color, they just wing it. In any case the higher you go past 4300/5000K you start losing more lumens exponentially, and run a higher risk of getting ticketed ... past 8000K you're just basically a High Intensity Douche.

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ETA:

Member arpz on hidp posted these comparo pics, and I thought they portrayed pretty well the loss of lumens as one goes up in Kelvin temp on their HIDs.

These low beams shots are on a set of very good projectors (RX-350), with Morimoto (slightly above average Chinese bulbs) D2S bulbs, the first pic is 5000K the second is 4300K. Both pics are on iphone auto settings.





It gets progressively worse the higher temp one goes, and also once you start dropping below 4000K. The only bulbs that are an exception to this are the Osram CBI bulbs that are the first built not to lose any lumens at 5000K.

Anyway, I know that some people think they get more light with a bluer light but it's simply not the case, not in proper OEM projectors and much less in PnP kits.

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There's never been an automotive OEM bulb manufactured to handle 50/55W. If you run OEM bulbs at that wattage it will significantly shorten their lifespan and they will run hotter, thus affecting surrounding components. Also, if you run any 35W bulb at higher wattage it will lower the K temperature rating. Not sure what the formula is of W to K but it I note it for the record.

There is one bulb that was originally manufactured to run at 50W. it is a non-automotive HID bulb called the DL-50 which came in a couple of variations including the infamous 'fatboy'. These have to be notched to work in tat D2S socket. They will only work right if run at 50W. The only way to get a real 50W output out of a ballast is to take an OEM ballast like AL-Bosch, and have it custom boosted, heatsinked, and potted to run at 50W. I've had this done in the past, and you're talking about $600 just for 2 bulbs and 2 ballasts. The output is insane, but you can get about 80% of that output by using Morimoto 5Five (50W) ballasts, and either SVS or CBI bulbs … but few projectors can take that amount of heat, so you might want to check if anyone has tried it on the projector you're looking at.

3. Custom modifications to shields, shield spacing, lens spacing, foreground limiters, are some of the customizations a lot of folks like to have done to achieve different color bands at the cutoff and other objectives. I know basically nothing about this stuff, so you can find out more on HIDP or by talking to a retrofitter.


LED lighting

There's no LED bulb on the market today that is a straight replacement for a headlight halogen bulb. LEDs generate a massive amount of heat, and the heatsink required to replicate halogen output in an LED bulb would be massive … certainly too big to be a straight swap for a halogen bulb. I'm sure this will happen at some point, but the tech is not there yet. And should it get there, the optics of the LED bulb, for the same reasons as an HID bulb, will fail to be compatible with halogen reflectors.

There are new LED projector modules on the market, including the brand new Hella Bi-Led module. They cost $700 a module. For $1400 you will get the same lumen output as a halogen bulb but with a pure white light.

There are other reputable manufacturers like JW Speaker who make stand alone headlamps and fog lamps in standardized sizes as direct housing replacements. Again very expensive, but very cool if you want full LED street legal lighting on your Harley or CJ7.

You an use a PnP 5202 bulb for your fogs if you want a whiter light. That light will only be for decorative purposes as the LEDs won't put out enough lumens to be functional … but then again, neither are our halogen fog bulbs.

For most other smaller bulb applications like DRL/TS/Park/Brakes PnP LED are often a cheap and effective alternative to customize one's truck.



That's pretty much all I know about HID and lighting in general. Undoubtably I am mistaken/misinformed on some elements but I'm somewhat confident I have a general grasp on the topic. The 'I run this and that' with no issue arguments will likely come back, all I''l say to that point is that technology is a matter of science and probability. The science is sound, and running inferior components increases possibility of failure and damage … it does not mean that every component fails.

I hope this info is useful to a soul or two.

I'm tired ...

Great write up. Thank you!

You're very welcome.

I'll add more info to original posts as it becomes available.

Bless you serge. You shed some "light" on a very good subject. Is this a sticky yet?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

Sticky!!

been a sticky since the minute he made it

Nice!!! Best thread I've seen in a LONG time