04 z71 Tahoe 4wd alignment problem

[mattt]

I have an 04 Z71 Tahoe 4wd that is stock w/ 170k on the ticker. It appears to be having a problem holding an alignment....specifically the toe setting. The place that did my last alignment includes a 6 month, 6000 mile warranty and they encouraged me to use it when I got new tires. So new tires went on and the Tahoe went back for an alignment check. I suspected it was off because it was scrubbing the outside edges of the front tires after the first alignment and a couple thousand miles. I can also tell when toe is out because it chirps tires on a U-turn or in some parking lots.

I had the shop check the tie rods and whatever else could be worn at 170k. They tell me everything is good as far as tie rods and other steering components. I took it back twice in a 7 day period to two different locations of the same store and even after a few hundred miles, toe was already out. That is IF the first guy was competent in setting it up....big IF there.

Anyone else had an issue like this, and if so, what was the cause? I have newer tires still and I'd like to nip this in the bud before it destroys these tires like it did the last set of Michelins.

Any other suggestions what to check on the front end that could constantly cause toe setting to go out?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Russ]

If the ball joints or control arm bushings are worn, it can cause the toe-in to vary also. You did not say how much the toe was off, but it would not be unusual for it to change a little bit on any front end that has the kind of mileage you stated. Less than a degree of total toe would not have me looking very hard.

 

[ccapehartusarmyINF.(ret)]

on a 4wd you should have a little bit of toe out to compenstate for torque
definatly get on that alignment issue if you got new tires on there
dont be like me and procrastinate wich caused me to literally destroy 2 brand new tires
i of course went and had the alignment done then went back to discount and showed them my tires and said WTF guys they of course blamed the alignment i told them i had it done before i got the tires so it couldnt be so they had to have there shop look at it before theyd replace the tires wich eventually they did

 

[mattt]

If the ball joints or control arm bushings are worn, it can cause the toe-in to vary also. You did not say how much the toe was off, but it would not be unusual for it to change a little bit on any front end that has the kind of mileage you stated. Less than a degree of total toe would not have me looking very hard.

Given what it did to a set of Michelin tires in a very short time, I'd like to get this figured out. Nothing obvious is worn or out, the problem is still in hiding.

First alignment....came in with with .37* drivers & -.29* pass. Corrected to .07* drivers & .06* pass. Total toe .13*

Drove ~5000 miles

Second alignment check.....came in with .18* drivers & .21* pass. Corrected to .02* drivers & .04* pass. Total toe ..06*

Drove a few hundred miles

Third alignment check....came in with -.15* drivers & .25* pass. Corrected to .07* drivers & .04* pass. Total toe .11*

on a 4wd you should have a little bit of toe out to compenstate for torque
definatly get on that alignment issue if you got new tires on there
dont be like me and procrastinate wich caused me to literally destroy 2 brand new tires
i of course went and had the alignment done then went back to discount and showed them my tires and said WTF guys they of course blamed the alignment i told them i had it done before i got the tires so it couldnt be so they had to have there shop look at it before theyd replace the tires wich eventually they did

I hear ya...that's why I posted up here. I procrastinated for too long and lost a pair of Michelin tires in the process. It looks like they set it up with a little toe out. Looking to see what else is a common wear or service item on this vintage of Tahoe to nip this in the bud.

Last time in the alignment shop, the manager was calling it, ps box slop, which I just don't feel that. I've driven a car with box slop and this doesn't have it. I think he's just reaching for straws since they can't figure it out. Any chance something loosens up over time as a possible cause...steering box or other front suspension components?

Thanks for the replies.

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

One more for the brain trust here.....does a Z71 Tahoe have different springs & torsion bars from a non Z71 Tahoe? Rear is higher than the front(stink bug stance) and I looked at the front torsion bar adjuster bolts. Drivers side front has more preload(bolt screwed in) and the drivers side is still ~5/8" lower than pass. side front. Looks like the drivers side t-bar may have taken a 'set' over time.

 

[southboundchicken]

I dont see the steering box being the issue at all.... Sounds like worn bushings ball joints and tie rod ends and with that kind of mileage i would consider updating your front end..... I have 140,000 and am in the process of replacing everything

 

[mattt]

I don't see it being the box either. I'm not one to just start throwing parts at a problem in hopes that it fixes said problem. The alignment place told me the tie rod ends are good and do not need replacement. The only other bushings I'm aware of in the front end is upper and lower control arm bushings....are there others? Are you replacing yours at 140k because they're all worn out, or simply because it has 140k?

 

[Russ]

I think much of the problem is that you don't understand how to interpret the printout from the alignment. The total toe is not moving around much, which is the important part. The individual left and right toe changes when the steering wheel is turned only a tiny bit, and will always read a bit different because the steering wheel is not locked in the same exact place each time. When the total toe goes out of spec, that is what eats tires.

 

[mattt]

I think much of the problem is that you don't understand how to interpret the printout from the alignment. The total toe is not moving around much, which is the important part. The individual left and right toe changes when the steering wheel is turned only a tiny bit, and will always read a bit different because the steering wheel is not locked in the same exact place each time. When the total toe goes out of spec, that is what eats tires.

The total toe #'s I listed above are after the alignment is done. The important #'s in what I listed is what the toe is when it arrives on the alignment machine. One side positive toe and the other side negative toe is not a good thing. The printouts I'm reading show toe when it arrived, toe when it's leaving, and total toe when it's leaving. Total toe is just the sum of two sides toe together, when the alignment is done.

The printouts also show what spec is and the negative toe is out of spec. Something is going on under this Tahoe, just need to spend some time under there and find it. Alignment shop has been unsuccessful at finding the root cause.

Is there anything common that loosens up on this generation of Tahoe, Silverado, Suburban?

 

[Russ]

I think you misread the point. When the wheel is turned, or the steering gear is worn, or the pitman arm is worn, it will allow the toe angle to shift positive on one side, and negative on the other. This does not effect the total toe. From what you have posted, it would appear that your total toe has varied a very tiny amount. If you consider that the control arm bushings, the ball joints, the tie rod ends, and the idler arm all have high milage on them, and each component can allow a small amount of variation into the alignment, the readings you have posted are not so bad that there should be cause for much concern.
Any vehicle with high milage will have a small amount of looseness (we are talking about tenths of a degree). If the tech is doing a thourogh inspection and is not seeing any one issue, it is very likely to be the sum of a tiny fraction of looseness in each of the aforementioned components.

 

[mattt]

Thank you for weighing in. The total toe #'s before being brought back into spec would be much worse if I'm not mistaken. The tire wear that I'm experiencing is the proof in the pudding that something is amiss here, whether any of us say there is something wrong or not. I can tell when it's out of alignment again, as the front tires start squealing when turning in parking lots and it doesn't roll easily with the steering cranked to full lock in either direction. I haven't had a bunch of time to crawl under it myself and try to find the problem....want something done right, do it yourself. I don't have much faith in the alignment shops I've used since it keeps going back out of spec in short order and wearing the tires poorly.