Hard Starting at Temperature, P0175

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MickeyD

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Good morning all!

I’ve been having an intermittent issue with my 09 Tahoe, and I’m looking for a bit of guidance. For reference, it is a Flex Fuel truck, but I only ever use gasoline. The truck is sitting at about 200,000 miles on the factory drivetrain.

A while back, I would periodically have issues starting. It would turn over and start, but there were mechanical sounds from the bendix sometimes, so I replaced the starter. No biggie. But even after that, sometimes it would turn over but have trouble catching, almost like it needed choke. I had been long overdue for plugs and wires, so I replaced them with OEM. And, it has had a new engine air filter.

That was around 1,000-2,000 miles ago. Recently, though, it has occasionally been hard to start again. I have found it is typically when the engine is at operating temperature; cold starts are fine, but if I run into a store and back out 10 minutes later, it will sometimes have this issue. It turns over and sputters, and while keeping the starter engaged it will catch and start a few seconds later. Now, every once in a while it is giving the P0175 code, where it sometimes goes away on its own, then comes back later that day or the next day. Additionally, every once in a while I will catch a whiff of gas when I get out after shutting it down.

I did replace the fuel pump/sender/lines with OEM maybe 10,000 miles ago.

So, I am wondering if anyone has a good place to start. I know the P0172 and P0175 codes can be tricky, but from my reading I haven’t found a clear answer where this comes up only at operating temperature. Does it make sense that it’s as simple as the O2 sensors, or could it be related to the MAF. Or, might it be a fuel pressure issue?

I hate to just throw parts at it if there’s a known, simple problem/solution that someone could identify. Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide!
 

donjetman

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Maybe vapor cannister vent valve ACDelco 214-1680 $20 on the intake manifold.
Purge valve.jpg
 

Fless

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Without any more diagnostic data it sounds like something might be causing the engine to be fuel-enriched while it's not running. A defective purge (not "vent" - that's in the rear of the truck) valve on the engine can incorrectly remain open when the engine is off and leak fuel vapors into the intake.

Also, a leaky injector can cause raw fuel to enter the cylinders when the engine is off.

Next time it does it, hold the accel pedal to the floor while cranking. That will turn off the injectors and the engine might start with the fuel that's present, without adding any. That's called "clear flood" mode. If it starts up, then you're on to something.
 

donjetman

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I had the vapor vent valve fail on a 08 GMC Acadia caused the no-start when warmed up issue. I had to do the "clear flood" method to start it until I changed the vapor vent valve.
 
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MickeyD

MickeyD

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Without any more diagnostic data it sounds like something might be causing the engine to be fuel-enriched while it's not running. A defective purge (not "vent" - that's in the rear of the truck) valve on the engine can incorrectly remain open when the engine is off and leak fuel vapors into the intake.

Also, a leaky injector can cause raw fuel to enter the cylinders when the engine is off.

Next time it does it, hold the accel pedal to the floor while cranking. That will turn off the injectors and the engine might start with the fuel that's present, without adding any. That's called "clear flood" mode. If it starts up, then you're on to something.
Thank you for the explanation and diagnostic test! Totally makes sense. I didn't mention initially, but I have replaced the rear vent solenoid (twice actually, swapped back to OEM after Dorman failed within a year). But I haven't done anything with the one up front.

I haven't ever had the injectors out, but I do occasionally send fuel system cleaner through the truck. Does it make sense that a leaky injector (partially open) may cause this while never throwing a misfire code?

I'll see if I have luck with the "clear flood" mode test.
 
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MickeyD

MickeyD

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Okay, here's a little more diagnostic info.

I tried the "clear flood" test and it didn't start. But then again, this issue is intermittent, so one test is not a smoking gun. I checked and today I also have P0172. That and the P0175 are the only two codes.

After doing some more research, I came across this video:


I followed his steps, and capping the Purge did not change the long term trim, even after stepping on it.

I then disconnected and capped the PCV line to test that. And, with the PCV off, the long term trim dropped from -13 to 0. After shutting the truck off, the fuel pressure increased, rather than decreasing. So, my thought is it's the high pressure fuel pump. At 200,000 miles I suppose it's not unexpected to have a leak like that. I should say that there's definitely gas fumes coming out of the PCV; I could smell them. Also for what it's worth, I don't have a catch can in the system (but it has been sitting on my shelf for a while).

Again, though, input is appreciated. Does my reasoning that it's the high pressure pump make sense? Or is it smarter top start by pulling the injectors and test them, even though the fuel pressure stays up after shutting it down?
 
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MickeyD

MickeyD

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Whoops, never mind. I see now that the 09 doesn't have the high pressure pump. Well now I'm thinking I may need to pull my injectors...
 

mikez71

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Check your ethanol %. Even though you only use regular gas, the ethanol is calculated off the O2 sensor readings..
Maybe try cleaning the MAF?
 

Fless

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Check your ethanol %. Even though you only use regular gas, the ethanol is calculated off the O2 sensor readings..
Maybe try cleaning the MAF?

^^^THIS. Read the alcohol % with a capable scanner. What does the MAF read in g/sec (NOT lb/min, please) at hot idle?

An injector balance test might show an issue with an injector before making any physical changes.

What do your short- and long-term fuel trims look like at idle, and at about 1800 rpm?
 

Fless

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I had the vapor vent valve fail on a 08 GMC Acadia caused the no-start when warmed up issue. I had to do the "clear flood" method to start it until I changed the vapor vent valve.

You're talking about the vent valve at the rear of the truck, right? Not the purge valve on the engine.
 

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