idling weird...

[Toejam]

Vser, I feel bad when anybody gets ripped-off in an auto repair or maintenance. And I mean no disrespect by my questions or statements. If these conversations help prevent someone else from being taken advantage off, well, that's one of the benefits of being in a forum.
Several scenarios, if you will:
1) An alignment is recommended. Tire wear? Steering or handling issues? Customer request? In this case, none of the above. It's called "Suggestive Selling", or "Upselling". A quick $100 for them. You come in expecting to spend $X, you leave spending $X+ $100. Helps them, not you.
2) New tires, recommend an alignment. I agree--to a point. If your alignment was fine before the tire replacement, it should be fine after the tire replacement.If in doubt, do the alignment to ensure the best life out of your tires.
3) Steering wheel off-center, pulls to one side or the other, wanders, etc. All steering, suspension, and brake components should be checked BEFORE suggesting an alignment. And even at that, many times a bent component wont be seen until specs are read off an alignment machine. Either the customer brings up the complaint, or the tech does in a pre-work test drive.
Which is why I test-drive every vehicle before I work on it to uncover problems unknown to the customer, and after the work to verify the repair.
I see your point about the specs not changing, no adjustments made, so what did you spend the $100 for? In example #1 I see the problem.
But in examples #2 & #3, if the specs didnt change and no adjustments were made, you paid for the knowledge that the vehicle is within spec. And that takes shop time and equipment to know that. Just because adjustments weren't necessary doesnt mean you were ripped off.
You hit a curb, bend a lower control arm. Vehicle pulls. The a-arm gets replaced, and afterwards, on the alignment rack, it is now all within spec. You still pay for the alignment. Because it could have easily been off. The alignment is the alignment--adjustments are made when and if necessary, there is no waiver of cost or price reduction because you didnt need adjustments made. The other side of the coin is that if adjustments are necessary, it's the same price no matter how long these adjustments take to perform. If other parts are needed, you pay for those parts and their installation, but you still pay for the one alignment.
Sorry about your poor experience.

 

[M3PO]

So in the end, a shop doesn't know if you need an alignment (unless there is substantial tire wear or a drive-ability problem) until they put the vehicle on the alignment rack, which costs them time and money.

I have a buddy that is a tech at a local dealer, and he tells me stories about how customers come in and complain that repairs/maintenance wasn't suggested to them by the service writer at the time the vehicle was in the shop-the customer comes back after another problem appears, blames the dealer, and expects the repairs to be made for free.
That same friend records his suggestions on the back of the ticket, so if the customer comes back to complain, it is on the service writer if he didn't relay the suggestions to the customer, as the tickets are on file.

 

[vserduchka]

If I ever open a shop, I'll be sure to only charge customers for alignments if I actually perform an alignment

Point is, if they don't perform the service, I don't pay for it.

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[M3PO]

If I ever open a shop

You should, I read your other post and I wondering if you are not the common denominator.

 

[vserduchka]

You should, I read your other post and I wondering if you are not the common denominator.

I just stand up for whats right. There are too many people out there getting walked on by dishonest mechanics.

I was quoted over 500 dollars today for a simple tune up (just plugs and wires)! That isn't fair to those purple who don't know any better.

I'm not dating that I hate everyone our that all mechanics are bad, I just like to know that I'm dealing with people who have some integrity.

That's getting harder and harder to come by these days.

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[Toejam]

If I ever open a shop, I'll be sure to only charge customers for alignments if I actually perform an alignment

Point is, if they don't perform the service, I don't pay for it.

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Sorry, but that won't happen. You pay $20K+ for an alignment rack, pay a salary to the tech performing alignments, all your other operating costs, insurances, advertising, etc. A customer comes in wanting an alignment, your tech takes shop time to set up the car on the rack and take all readings, prints them out, all is OK and youre not going to charge him??
How about this: A Honda Accord comes in the shop and the owner requests a valve adjustment. You quote 1.5 hours. The tech removes the ignition and valve cover, checks all valve clearances, all are within spec, and reinstalls the previously removed parts with a new valve cover gasket. Are you going to charge for just the gasket and nothing else?
In the 1st example, the customer paid for the KNOWLEDGE that his car was in alignment, in the 2nd example the customer paid for the KNOWLEDGE his valve clearances were within specification. And the only way to obtain that knowledge is by physically checking the alignment specs and physically checking the valve clearances. And as these 2 procedures are both labor operations, money has to change hands in exchange for that knowledge. Otherwise you won't be in business long. This is not cheating. This is performing work.
An older Chevy half-ton pickup comes in, the owner says..."I had the front brake pads replaced last summer, so they should be OK. But I'd like the rear shoes checked. If they need replacing, go ahead and replace the rear shoes. Your tech puts the truck on a lift, removes the rear wheels and brake drums. The rear shoes have plenty of service life left on them. Your tech reinstalls the rear drums and wheels. Do you hand the customer the keys and say.."You dont need rear shoes, so I can't charge you for checking them. Have a nice day!" I didnt think so.
You go to a doctor for a complete physical, he finds nothing wrong. Do you expect to leave his office without a bill?

"I was quoted over 500 dollars today for a simple tune up (just plugs and wires)! That isn't fair to those purple who don't know any better."
1) to tune an engine is to bring it back to maximum operating efficiency. Just replacing plugs and wires dont cut it. There are many other items to check if you are going to tune an engine.
2) If it was that simple, why wouldnt you do it yourself?
3) There are mileage interval specs for spark plug replacement. Not so the wires. So..why are you replacing them?
4) What was the breakdown of labor and parts costs to replace the plugs and wires?
5) Why are you inquiring about a "tune up" in the 1st place? fuel economy or driveability problems? Lack of power? What do expect this tune-up to accomplish?
6) Let's say you found a shop that agreed to replace your plugs and wires for $250.The work was done, it didnt run any better afterwards than it did before. Do you feel you got "ripped off" because you didnt know any better?

As to your statement about being fair to people who dont know any better, what to YOU would be a fair price?

Lot's of questions, I know. Sorry 'bout that, but sometimes things arent as simple as they may seem.

 

[vserduchka]

Sorry, but that won't happen. You pay $20K+ for an alignment rack, pay a salary to the tech performing alignments, all your other operating costs, insurances, advertising, etc. A customer comes in wanting an alignment, your tech takes shop time to set up the car on the rack and take all readings, prints them out, all is OK and youre not going to charge him??
How about this: A Honda Accord comes in the shop and the owner requests a valve adjustment. You quote 1.5 hours. The tech removes the ignition and valve cover, checks all valve clearances, all are within spec, and reinstalls the previously removed parts with a new valve cover gasket. Are you going to charge for just the gasket and nothing else?
In the 1st example, the customer paid for the KNOWLEDGE that his car was in alignment, in the 2nd example the customer paid for the KNOWLEDGE his valve clearances were within specification. And the only way to obtain that knowledge is by physically checking the alignment specs and physically checking the valve clearances. And as these 2 procedures are both labor operations, money has to change hands in exchange for that knowledge. Otherwise you won't be in business long. This is not cheating. This is performing work.
An older Chevy half-ton pickup comes in, the owner says..."I had the front brake pads replaced last summer, so they should be OK. But I'd like the rear shoes checked. If they need replacing, go ahead and replace the rear shoes. Your tech puts the truck on a lift, removes the rear wheels and brake drums. The rear shoes have plenty of service life left on them. Your tech reinstalls the rear drums and wheels. Do you hand the customer the keys and say.."You dont need rear shoes, so I can't charge you for checking them. Have a nice day!" I didnt think so.
You go to a doctor for a complete physical, he finds nothing wrong. Do you expect to leave his office without a bill?

"I was quoted over 500 dollars today for a simple tune up (just plugs and wires)! That isn't fair to those purple who don't know any better."
1) to tune an engine is to bring it back to maximum operating efficiency. Just replacing plugs and wires dont cut it. There are many other items to check if you are going to tune an engine.
2) If it was that simple, why wouldnt you do it yourself?
3) There are mileage interval specs for spark plug replacement. Not so the wires. So..why are you replacing them?
4) What was the breakdown of labor and parts costs to replace the plugs and wires?
5) Why are you inquiring about a "tune up" in the 1st place? fuel economy or driveability problems? Lack of power? What do expect this tune-up to accomplish?
6) Let's say you found a shop that agreed to replace your plugs and wires for $250.The work was done, it didnt run any better afterwards than it did before. Do you feel you got "ripped off" because you didnt know any better?

As to your statement about being fair to people who dont know any better, what to YOU would be a fair price?

Lot's of questions, I know. Sorry 'bout that, but sometimes things arent as simple as they may seem.

Sorry, I just don't agree with that. In all of those instances, I'd only charge for work performed.

I asked for a "tune up" because that has become a catchall phrase encompassing full tune and also just spark plugs and wires. When I asked for the tune up, they told me that they would be changing the plugs, wires, and doing a fuel injector cleaning. Nothing more. No fancy "bringing it back to maximum operating efficiency like you said." Thats why I was so annoyed with them.

And just fyi, I need to change my spark plugs and check my wires per my service manual. My yukon will be hitting 100k soon.

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[vserduchka]

After hearing that quote, I purchased plugs, wires, pcv and fuel filter for less than $100 and will be doing the work myself.

Who knows? I may even buy a bottle of injector cleaner lmao.

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[Toejam]

"Sorry, I just don't agree with that. In all of those instances, I'd only charge for work performed."
And that right there is crux of this discussion: You fail to realize that diagnosis, verification, testing, and checking IS work performed. You just dont want to pay for that work, for the tools and equipment involved, the education required, and the experience of the person doing the work.

Picking just one of those instances, explain to me how a doctor doing a complete physical on you shouldnt be paid unless he finds something wrong, prescribes a course of action and cures the ailment.

But I'll tell you what...you open that shop and run it the way you say you would. Unless youre The American Red Cross, "a not-for-profit organization", I give you 2 weeks at best.

 

[Yingchun]

If buying a laundry list of non returnable parts is cheaper than paying the dreaded mechanic, than you have the wrong mechanic. I have three friends that are techs at local dealers, all three are very good at diagnosing issues, which usually means saving the customer money. Its a shame the majority get a bad rap, because someone got a big bill or taken advantage of. Numerous times over the years, all three friends have found my vehicle's issue the first time and it cost me very little time and money, as I only had to buy one part.


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