Let's Ask This Question Another Way...

[bobsburban]

Pardon, in advance, the mini-novel. And thanks everyone for the replies to my question regarding 1500 vs. 2500 frames and suspensions in this thread: https://www.tahoeyukonforum.com/threads/1500-vs-2500-frames.125382/

Been pondering those comments and what I'm looking to accomplish with this 2011 1500 that I have. Including the purchase price, the improvements noted in my signature, very robust preventative maintenance, and the tires, I'm all in at $14,800 or so for a truck with 240,000 miles on it. And where I'm headed is possibly a heavier trailer for full timing with a nod towards off-road, though no more so than NFS and BLM roads for the most part. Right now for a 3 week trip with a 17', 2900 lb Winnebago plus food & clothing, camp gear, 10 gallons of gas on a hitch shelf over the two 30 lb propane tanks, 10 gallons of water in the 'Burb, tools, fishing gear, cooler with drinks & ice, etc., etc. and I'm pushing 4000 - 4200 pounds in the trailer, another 700 in the 'Burb (including our weight), and about 500 lbs hitch weight. I'm installing Air-Lift bags after we get back from the UP (couldn't get them here in time to install before the trip) and am using a Husky WDH with the 800 - 1200 lb bars. From a handling standpoint, I don't know the trailer is back there but from a power standpoint, I'd like a bit more uumpf.

We're also talking about going full-time in a year or two and are considering a 23.5' Oliver or a used 25' Airstream, which are both in the 5000 - 5500 lb (dry) range as far as weight. Which puts us at 7500-ish total plus the truck's weight, which is starting to approach the 80% limit on the truck when using a WDH. So I'm curious about increasing the capacity of what I have, first, before exploring the increasingly pricey realm of 3/4 ton Suburbans.

To stick with this truck, I'm seriously considering going from my current 3.42 gears to 3.73s or 4.10s to help the 5.3 cope with our current weight and 32 - 33" tires. And while the 5.3 isn't showing any signs of distress, dropping in a 6.0 (especially if we go with a heavier TT) would also be likely, along with a wooden bed platform/storage box combo in the back of the truck (which adds sprung weight) so both grandkids could travel with us at times and have a place to sleep.

So, what are the real variables that determine towing capacity? Engine size? Cooling capacity? Gearing? Brake capacity? Frame strength? Can anything be traded off if others are improved? (For instance, the only reason a ZR-2 Colorado's towing capacity is 5000 lbs and the Z71's is 7500 lbs or so - with Duramax engines in both - is the bumper design which impacts the ZR-2's cooling.) And considering those variables, what would be your thoughts on a strategy of re-gearing, installing larger brakes, and/or installing another engine (if it were to blow or, hopefully more likely, we were to upsize our trailer) vs. looking for a 2500 in good condition? In this scenario, my total investment is going to probably go north of $22k. Maybe as much as $25k. (For comparison, the last Federal 2500s I saw on Chicago Motor's website were in the high-$20s to mid-$30s. At the moment there's only a 3500 HD on there right now - and it's a bit pricey at $60k.)

Thanks in advance for helping me plan for what's coming. Things seem to be quite a bit more complicated than when I was a kid helping dad pull a 30 foot Holiday Rambler through the west with a 4WD International Travelall.

 

[Bill 1960]

Respectfully, when I saw your thread title the first thought in my head was that every time I’ve heard a question posed that way it meant the questioner already has a preferred answer.

I’ve been in your shoes (heck, I’ve spent more on this Tahoe than made sense). However... there’s no getting around the fact that a 2500 is beefier in every way. If I need to tow more than I’m comfortable with a 1500, I’m trading vehicles.

As a long time RV enthusiast, I’ve heard all the arguments on why a weight limitation exists, and what supposed upgrades will raise it. I’ve done a bunch of them. Which is why I don’t recommend them.

My apologies for being a naysayer, if that’s how it’s perceived, but I’d rather see someone relaxed and enjoying a towing experience than white knuckling it, or worse. There’s lots of stresses and aggravation in a mobile lifestyle. Don’t let your vehicle be one of those.

Safe travels and happy trails!

 

[bigdog9191999]

i will start my mentioning that with you saying your coming back from the up that your in lower Michigan as home. if that is the case and you want a no ******** comparison from a 1500 5.3, 1500 6.0 and a 2500 (slightly unfair with an 8.1, but you can feel the chassis difference) then hit me up and i would be glad to take part of an afternoon and hook the same trailer to all three and physically demonstrate the difference. ( or can call if desired )


as for an explanation here i will just say that if your considering going full time, and if your getting anywhere close to your capacity then go 2500 and not look back.

the tow capacity of our Denali which is a 1500 6.0 truck is basically the same as our other 1500's. so it is defiantly the chassis that is the limiting factor. the frame, brakes, suspension, axles, steering components, ect are all just better for continued use in this matter. the 10bolt rear axle is only so strong, the frame is only so strong ect. the brakes are about the only system that you can upgrade to a point that they should be close to what a 2500 would have stock.


you can add all the extra stuff to your tuck that you want to make it tow better but at the end of the day it is still a 1500. sure it may carry the load fine, handle it fine, have more power, more brakes ect but all they are doing is making what you have safer, and more comfortable and at the end of the day the 2500 with start there without all the money and effort. and nothing you do will legally increase your capacity (aside from what a wdh does) the bigger brakes, 10 ply tires, bigger engine, gears with all make it do and feel better and safer. but legally does nada.

 

[bobsburban]

Respectfully, when I saw your thread title the first thought in my head was that every time I’ve heard a question posed that way it meant the questioner already has a preferred answer.

I’ve been in your shoes (heck, I’ve spent more on this Tahoe than made sense). However... there’s no getting around the fact that a 2500 is beefier in every way. If I need to tow more than I’m comfortable with a 1500, I’m trading vehicles.

As a long time RV enthusiast, I’ve heard all the arguments on why a weight limitation exists, and what supposed upgrades will raise it. I’ve done a bunch of them. Which is why I don’t recommend them.

My apologies for being a naysayer, if that’s how it’s perceived, but I’d rather see someone relaxed and enjoying a towing experience than white knuckling it, or worse. There’s lots of stresses and aggravation in a mobile lifestyle. Don’t let your vehicle be one of those.

Safe travels and happy trails!

No preferred answers, and no naysaying perceived, Bill. This is what I'm looking for - honest, experienced opinions on how much further I should take the current vehicle (if any further) before I look for a 2500. From the comments so far, it looks as if we get a bigger trailer, the 2500 will need to be part of the package. If we don't, I can probably stick with what I have, re-gear it at some point, keep it well maintained, and hope the 5.3 is as solid as everyone says it is.

Happy trails to you, as well!

 

[bobsburban]

i will start my mentioning that with you saying your coming back from the up that your in lower Michigan as home. if that is the case and you want a no ******** comparison from a 1500 5.3, 1500 6.0 and a 2500 (slightly unfair with an 8.1, but you can feel the chassis difference) then hit me up and i would be glad to take part of an afternoon and hook the same trailer to all three and physically demonstrate the difference. ( or can call if desired )...

I very much appreciate that offer, bigdog, but home is Chattanooga Tennessee, and the boss has plans for the lower MI part of this trip already. And, as I noted to Bill, thanks for your experience. I'm starting to see a trend here...

 

[intheburbs]

The "tow rating" of any vehicle is limited by the weakest link in the system. That could be the frame, brakes, axle ratio, receiver, engine, tires, or any one of a myriad of variables.

To illustrate this, you need look no further than a comparison of curb weights. Your 2011 1500 weighs about 5500 lbs. My 2008 2500 weighs 6500 lbs. That's an extra 1000 lbs of bulk. All of that extra weight is caused by the beefier/different components.

I'm not sure where you're getting your towing numbers from. You said this: "Which puts us at 7500-ish total plus the truck's weight, which is starting to approach the 80% limit on the truck when using a WDH." A 7500-lb trailer is 80% of MY limit with my 2500. I towed a 7,000-lb trailer in the Rockies with my half-ton 2001 Suburban. Let's just say that was a handful.

I posted in your other thread, but I'm not sure this statement stood out enough to sink in. Park our two trucks next to each other. They look the same because they have the same body. Remove the bodies and cart them away. What you have left are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TRUCKS. Literally. I'm not exaggerating. Beneath the bodies, there are virtually ZERO shared components between the 1500 and 2500. Okay, maybe the A/C system and the alternator. In fact, the 2500 is actually a GMT800 undercarriage. Remember the 1500HD pickups from GMT800, or the non-HD 2500 pickups? That's exactly what the 2500 Suburbans are under that GMT900 body.

What's different?

Frame (the GMT900 body actually has two sets of mounting points to accommodate the two different frames)
Engine
Transmission
Drive shafts
axles
transfer case
u-joints
suspension
steering
brake power assist (vacuum vs hydroboost)
brakes

It's not a simple case of, "Well, if I replace A, B, and C, BAM! I've got a 2500!"

Ok, I get it, you're trying to make do with what you've got. So here's my advice: IMHO, the weakest parts on the half-tons are the brakes and rear axle.

I would upgrade the entire brake system to something like Powerstop Extreme. I'm actually getting my Powerstop Extreme brakes tomorrow - pads, rotors, calipers. That's gonna run $1000ish, depending on whether you or a mechanic does the install.

Then, I would focus on the axles. Regearing to 4.10 or 4.56 would take some stresses out of the powertrain and give you more power. I would then beef up that rear axle with new/better components. If that's too much, maybe start with a diff cover with cooling fins to keep the temperatures in check. And, of course, you'll need to do more-frequent fluid changes.

Next, if you're going heavier, would be rear suspension help - stiffer/heavier springs or airbags. My 2001 half-ton had the self-leveling shocks, so she never squatted. But even with weight distribution, you're going to want some extra support to keep your rear from sagging.

And if you're planning to go with a heavier trailer, I would strongly suggest something like the Hensley Arrow or ProPride hitch. With that lighter half-ton, you want every possible system to keep control of your rig.

Just my $.02. It's worth what you paid for it.

PS - I'll make the same offer. I'm in SE MI. Would be happy to meet up with you with my 2500 to compare/test drive/test tow.

 

[bobsburban]

Thanks for that detailed analysis, Bill. I did hear you the first time, but the old corporate photographer who shoots every angle imaginable of a scene so the art director has choices looks at decisions the same way - from every angle imaginable. And I'm not sure where I got a total trailer weight of 10,000 lbs - my owners manual lists 8,000 lbs max with the HD towing package. My mistake.

Anyway, even though I added the 1250 lb Moog rear springs when I removed the dead air-leveling stuff, I'm adding back some 1k Air-Lift bags (already on order) to help with squat, though it's not terrible with the WDH.

Interesting that you jumped right past 3.73s to 4.10s. 3.73 doesn't offer enough improvement? And thanks for the Powerstop advice - I'll look into those as well, though I'm not feeling unsettled with the stock brakes. I leave lots and lots of room and shift manually in the mountains. While I'm not one to let momentum get the best of me if I can help it, extra capacity is always good.

It sounds like gears, beefier rear axle components, and brakes might be where I should call a halt to things if we keep this current rig. That and maintenance. I just settled on 5000 mile oil change intervals with what I saw when I changed out the oil this first time after 7500 miles using 5W-30 Mobil 1. Given the beating the engine oil is taking, I'll probably do the diffs/transfer case/transmission fluids at 40 or 50k intervals as well. If we go bigger, well, everything gets bigger.

Again, thanks, everyone.

 

[intheburbs]

I've always thought that the half-tons are "underbraked." Both my 2001 Suburban and 2009 Sierra Denali seem to eat pads and rotors. Contrast that with the 2500 - I put 100,000 miles on it and never did anything with the brakes. And about 20% of that mileage was heavy towing with the behemoth trailer, and another 20% towing a 4000-lb trailer with no brakes. And that heavy towing included multiple crossings of the Continental Divide, up to 11,000+ feet in altitude. I also did some driving for Uber in that time, probably 250 trips or so, with lots of stop and go driving. So, if anything, a more severe duty cycle than my half-tons.

I figure at 210k miles, she's ready for new brakes. Everything is being replaced - pads, rotors, calipers, master cylinder, power steering pump, high pressure hoses and brake lines.

Regarding gearing - I've never been much of a fan of regearing. Large expense for minimal gain. So if you're going to spend the money, might as well make a significant change. The six-speed and 4.10 should give a nice improvement in performance, yet you'll still only be around 2500 rpm at 80 mph in 6th. GM must agree with that, as the recent 3500HD Suburban had the 6.0, 6L90 and 4.10 gears.

 

[Big Mama]

Great practical advice. The other thing you mentioned is having 240k miles on your current rig. With the hard work it’s going to put in it may have problems staying together over time. Right now used rigs are hard to come by so though you might pay more for the 2500 you’ll also get more for yours. Do a nationwide search and you might see better prices. Happy towing.

 

[shock]

GM 2500 SUVs are hard to come by and demand premium $$$.

Have you considered a Silverado 2500? They will be much more affordable. Throw a grandpa camper cap on the back and you have more storage than a suburban anyway.