Lifter Failure Root Cause Same as HEMI?

[cfkahn]

I know there are a lot of posts published online about this, but I can’t find an answer to my specific question.



Yes, I am trying to learn what causes the lifter failure in the 5.3L and 6.2L V8 engines. I found something interesting about lifter failure in HEMI engines, and I wonder if the GM V8 engines experience the same type of failure.



The 5.7L and 6.4L HEMI V8 engines have an affinity for lifter failure like the GM engines do. No, I am not entirely sure it’s the same type of failure, but if it is, then I’m wanting to learn if there is a similar solution. Let me elaborate a bit more.



A master FCA technician spent years collaborating with an engineer to determine and find a solution for HEMI lifter failure. Hd referenced FCA’s lifter failure statistics, which found that most lifter failure events occurred in vehicles with high idle times and/or poor oil change maintenance. That led them into investigating oil lubrication quality at varying levels, such as at idle and throughout a range of throttle input.



Online, it seems the oldest and most popular theory among HEMI owners (and GM V8 owners) is that the cylinder deactivation technology (AFM, DFM, MDS) causes the problem. In the case of the HEMI engines, the technician emphasized that the same type of lifter failure occurred on both MDS and non-MDS V8 models, so he wasn’t convinced the cylinder deactivation is the root cause. It is still possible that MDS might have an effect in correlation with inadequate lubrication, but not the root cause, which is again according to the technician.



The technician and his engineer co-researcher concluded that inadequate oil lubrication at idle is the root cause of excessive lifter and camshaft wear, leading to premature failure. A ticking noise is a tale-tale sign of excessive lifter wear. His solution is to replace the stock oil pump with a higher volume oil pump, such as the Melling 10452HV oil pump. It increases the oil volume by 20%. According to the tech, it allows the oil to lubricate key areas that do not get properly oiled otherwise, thus preventing the excessive wear and tear.



Thoughts? Has anyone found information suggesting that inadequate lubrication is the root cause of lifter failure in the 5.3L and 6.2L V8 engines?

 

[GMCnewbee]

My opinion about this is that the cause of lifter failure is either bad design or bad manufacturing. Yes, improper lubrication does not help anything, and I agree that it is another possible cause or at least a contributing factor. I think whoever makes the lifters either does not pay attention to the specs or just plain figures that nobody is checking and they can get away with "changes" to the metals, dimensions, or the "finish" that lowers their cost and increases their profit. This is just simple logic and speculation on my part. Since every engine on earth is not failing there is certainly an element of randomness, that is, not every lifter is designed or built "wrong", and not every engine is subjected to the same use or has the same amount of care by the User. Do you feel lucky?

 

[Marky Dissod]

My opinion about this is that the cause of lifter failure is either bad design, or bad manufacturing.

The two-mode lifters appear to feel the same way, given their performance history, especially vs simpler lifters'.
MY OPINION is that the lifters were intentionally spec'd & designed by GM to not be as robust as simpler lifters.
If a 3rd party's specs / design is inferior to GM's already inferior specs ...

Yes, improper lubrication does not help anything, and I agree that it is another possible cause,
or at least a contributing factor.

I wonder to what extent 0W20 or 5W20 is improper lubrication, especially compared against 0W30 or 5W30.
Not all synthetics are created equal ...

I think whoever makes the lifters either does not pay attention to the specs,
or just plain figures that nobody is checking and they can get away with
"changes" to the metals, dimensions, or the "finish" that lowers their cost and increases their profit.
This is just simple logic and speculation on my part. Since every engine on earth is not failing,
there is certainly an element of randomness, that is, not every lifter is designed or built "wrong",
and not every engine is subjected to the same use or has the same amount of care by the User.

Do you feel lucky?

If luck is the residue of design, then it'd behoove one to research and select the best lifters.
Pay once, cry once. In Spanish, "lo barato, sale caro", roughly translates to "cheap turns out costly".

VERY SERIOUSLY CONSIDER Engine Half@$$ Delete.
Single mode lifters are better designed and proven to last FAR longer than two-mode lifters.

 

[15burban]

Having a hemi for the past 8 or so years I've read up a little on the hemi cam and lifter failures. First truck 05 1500 with the 5.7 no mds. 2nd and current truck 16 2500 6.4 with mds. Hemis came back out in 03 in the trucks. First year of mds was 06. 09 the hemi got eagle heads and I'm pretty sure the same year they raised the cam up higher in the block. The one who designed this spec'd a billet cam. Did a billet cam ever make it into the hemi. NOPE. In 17 supposedly the lifters got bigger needle bearings. I personally have never heard of a cam or lifter failure from a 03-08 only 09+. I'm not saying it hasn't happened just I haven't heard or read about them in the 03-08s. 09+ I've heard of a lot but again guys most of the time don't come on here to say their vehicle is running fine.

Like I think was mentioned hemi manual challengers that don't have mds still have cam and lifter failure. There's a lot of theories, cheap parts, cam too high in the block, lighter weight oil that keeps getting lighter and lighter, mds, too low of idle rpm, too long between oil changes and many more. Hemis are also known to be princess motors and what oil you use can make a big difference on the sounds it makes running.

I don't know much about the 5.3 and 6.2 but one way I'd assume the cam and lifters are different is another theory that the hemis cam gets more oil flow when the mds lifters are kicked in and is only running on 4 cylinders. Again a theory since when I engage tow haul in my truck it won't let it go into 4 cylinder mode. You would think when your engine is working its hardest they would have designed it for optimal flow.

It would be neat to find out the real cause and roughly how many (%) have cam and lifter failure. I highly doubt we will ever know. My guess, for the hemi at least, is moving the cam up higher along with cheapening out on parts.

With the 15 suburban we have a range afm disabler. My Ram I let do its thing only on the highway and that's only for as long as I can take it. The magnaflow sounds like crap when the mds kicks in.

 

[zbad55]

The GM lifter failure and issues were due to a supplier spill and the lifter springs, a lot of them got released to the plants before the issue was identified and corrected,

 

[Silverado4x4]

The cause of the lifter issue was improper heat treating of the lifters from the supplier which was identified. The bad batch was Sept 2020 to March of 2021 engine build not vehicle build

 

[Marky Dissod]

The cause of the lifter issue was
improper heat treating of the lifters from the supplier, which was identified.

Identified, as ... whom?

The bad batch was Sept 2020 to March of 2021 engine build,
not vehicle build

Two-mode lifters will still never be as reliable, as one-mode lifters, even if the two-mode lifter never gets to be lazy.

 

[tom3]

The early lifter failures are probably due to the heat treatment issue noted above, but it's much more common for the lifters to fail after 80k miles or so, almost a sure thing. Looking at the actual parts and studying the operation it's pretty easy to see why. And to add to the misery that AFM and the programmed slipping of the torque converter lock up clutch destroys the clutch, and the transmission with all the debris. Comparing the lifters:

Standard type lifter"



GM AFM lifter:

 

[Chevymec]

in 2009 I had a 2010 1500 come in with a loud tapping in the top end. under 700 miles the AFM lifter spring had broken. I believe GM's bulletin at the time said it was a bad batch of lifters and to replace ALL lifters. Our chargers have hemi's and are on a pretty strict maintence schedule of 3000-3500 for service. I do agree the high idle times don't do them any favors. We have had some with 30k miles start the hemi tick. Lucas synthetic additive is added to them every service and to be honest, I don't think it helps. We use Mobil oil "synthetic blend". Gotta put the cheapest thing in there!

 

[Donal]

The early lifter failures are probably due to the heat treatment issue noted above, but it's much more common for the lifters to fail after 80k miles or so, almost a sure thing. Looking at the actual parts and studying the operation it's pretty easy to see why. And to add to the misery that AFM and the programmed slipping of the torque converter lock up clutch destroys the clutch, and the transmission with all the debris. Comparing the lifters:

Standard type lifter"

View attachment 428676

GM AFM lifter:
View attachment 428677

Good photograph of the lifter. I find it interesting that the almost never shown component related to the failures is the little oring that seals between the block tower for each cylinder, and the volm assembly. If this oring is damaged or re-used, a leak of oil occurs and the lifter cannot maintain the locked-in condition.