Project Carbon Next Gen 10 Speed Valve Body Kit

[DuraYuk]

You and other may think I an going overboard, but this is what the work has come to, premature engine and transmission failures. Based on everything I have researched, it is not IF but when. Similar problems on the 6 and 8 speeds as well with valve body wear and separator plate sealing issues.

The issue is with these internal leaks clutch packs can have reduced application pressure and slippage. What happens is these leaks start out minor and you may not notice the problem until it gets really bad. By that time, you have started to cause excessive wear to the transmission and it may be a bit late for a simple valve body replacement. Understand on the units GM recalled, ONLY the valve body is warranted for 15 years/150,000 miles, not the entire transmission.

So I have the tools, skills and experience to perform the job, so rather than wait for the problem to happen, I will head off the issue and address it now.

Doing valve body work in the driveway is not a problem, I have done this before a number of times. Really not so difficult, sure a lift is better, but I have not spend $4500 on a lift yet!

Not so worried about fluid dripping, it will only drip so long. Not a problem is you have a decent drain pan!! Some folks miss the big picture on drain pans!!

Best $8 drain pan for large oil sumps and transmission work!

As for the 9 quarts of oil in the engine, the vehicle has a stock oil pan, but GM's spec of 8 quarts with oil filter for the V8's is not how they come filled from the factory!! Anyone running 8 quarts with a filter is asking for trouble. All I did was match what the engine was shipped with from the factory. Have crossed checked almost a dozen Yukons, Suburbans, Tahoes and they are would be about 2/3 rds low on oil if 8 quarts is used during an oil change.

Figuring out the stupid GM transmission fluid will will be fun as well. SO MUCH DOCUMENTION is conflicting and I believe WRONG. For the STUPID GM Engineer that came up with a fluid fill at around 180-212F is asking for problems and for people to get hurt. The smart fill procedures I have seen for other vendors was for the trans fluid to be at 100F, this is below burning temperature.

So many users are failing to use the fluid fill standpipe in the bottom of some of the trans pans. The fluid fill standpipe is a genius way to go, VW and other German manufacturers even allowed the standpipe to be unthreaded so you could actually drain most of the fluid via the standpipe hole. You can even fill easily via the standpipe hole as well, it is very easy, the convoluted and expensive tools they suggest are crazy, you can use a $8 fluid transfer pump from the parts store.

I will first be checking the fluid cold from the upper case fill port and taking a measurement. I will pretty much then measure the fluid I drain from the transmission and this will be my baseline. GM fills these transmissions "cold" or at least at a fixed temperature during assembly and I can guarantee it is not likely over 100F.

A quick glance under my vehicle I did not see the standpipe in the pan, but I need to check closer as it may be in a corner that I missed. But what I can say for sure there are plenty of DIY videos and posts on forums that I believe are way wrong and I have even seen a GM bulletin that want the transmission temperature up to close to 200F which is hot going to happen on my watch. I have yet to see the operating temperature of my transmission go above 160F so far.

You don't need to explain to me what you are trying to prevent.

I'm saying if you do have an early failure your aftermarket valve body will make finding the route cause harder and potentially void the warranty. As you yourself just said it's crucial to transmission function.

So you are basing your 9 quarts off what gm comes with ? How did you do that? What's the level look like on the lipstick when it has 9 quarts?

I fill a cars engine by putting in 90% of the asked for spec, start the car. Turn it off then check dip stick and add until I get to the max line.

If you are way past the dip stick at 9quarts you risk causing cavitation.

Another misnomer is that you seem to think you know more than the people that designed these systems and that's always a fatal error.

I could hop on the bandwagon for aftermarket valve body but no way in hell if it's got factory warranty. The rest of what you say I'm just lost on.

I hope it works out but the 10 speed is no 8 speed and they are very stout and reliable as can be seen by how many get rebuilt at the dealer level under warranty. The 8 speed has many issues that are not relevant in either the 6 or 10 speed.

I wish you luck. I'll be following this thread to see how it all ends up.

 

[jfoj]

The level on the engine oil dipstick with 9 quarts is just barely over the top hash marks, where I found the oil level or very close to it when I took delivery of the vehicle. I have personally inspected about 6 other 6.2l with less than 8 miles and found the same oil level from the factory. These engines take AT LEAST 8.7 quart with filter. It is not a problem if we are putting 0.3 quarts additional oil in the engine. We are talking 9 oz over the upper surface area of the oil pan, we are talking less than 1/8" oil level above the top full line, there is PLEANTY of space below the windage tray, no problems with cavitation, I have watched for this and it is a non issue. GM should or any other manufacturer should not be making it so difficult to perform and oil change that you have to split quarts during an oil fill. Same thing I have done in any car that required something stupid like 4.8 quarts with filter, it gets 5, move on, nothing to see here, nothing to worry about. Just search my user name here, I have a thread on this issue and was flamed up one side and down the other, but I will be having the last laugh on this one!!

Um yea, I do know a bit more than some of the people that design these vehicle and other brand vehicles. Understand that designs are usually not based on 100% reliability, rarely have the safety margins that they should and there are other factors like $$$$$. Again, design down to a price, not to a level or reliability. I have seen SO MANY STUPID design choices over the years, this is why the aftermarket has so many solutions for many of these poor design choices as well as people like myself have modified and corrected design deficiencies.

You may think the 10 speed is a rock solid transmission, while overall it is very good, there have been a number of problems with clutch pack drums, GM's stupid helical cut pump gears and some other problem areas, the VALVE BODIES are a PROBLEM. Over 500,000 vehicles have been recalled due to the valve body problem. GM took an approach of performing a Software Update for a Hardware Problem!! Not ideal, they chose to not take full responsibility for the problem, because with the all the engine and transmission failures it would likely bankrupt GM.

Trust me, I expect to also see the 2023-2025 model trucks to have the same valve body recall. I just do not know how deep into the 2025 model year they will recall them because GM may have started to push out the updated TCM software that is supposed to detect the valve body problems. Great in theory, they clearly sold this idea to NHTSA, but is this a 100% way to solve the problem, not in my book.

Not so worried about the modified valve body causing problems, if there are problems they should show up pretty quickly after the modifications, otherwise, I expect the modifications to outlast an OE valve body.

Start researching the 10 speed problems, they are happening more and more frequently as these trucks age and usually occur before the Powertrain Warranty has expired, some afterwards. I have seen some have problem in less than 1000 miles. As I post this there are people that have been out of their cars for 3-4 or more months waiting on a replacement valve body that is not likely much better than the one coming out of their vehicle. Additionally once enough "new" valve bodies have charged the pipeline, all the others will be remanufactured!!

We shall see what happens, I am confident in my work and will decide if I am comfortable with the aftermarket parts, but in general they are far superior than what ships with the OE valve bodies, aluminum pistons operating in aluminum bores with Ultra Low Viscosity transmission fluid is not going to end well along with the thin paper gasket and thin valve body separator plate.

 

[DuraYuk]

The level on the engine oil dipstick with 9 quarts is just barely over the top hash marks, where I found the oil level or very close to it when I took delivery of the vehicle. I have personally inspected about 6 other 6.2l with less than 8 miles and found the same oil level from the factory. These engines take AT LEAST 8.7 quart with filter. It is not a problem if we are putting 0.3 quarts additional oil in the engine. We are talking 9 oz over the upper surface area of the oil pan, we are talking less than 1/8" oil level above the top full line, there is PLEANTY of space below the windage tray, no problems with cavitation, I have watched for this and it is a non issue. GM should or any other manufacturer should not be making it so difficult to perform and oil change that you have to split quarts during an oil fill. Same thing I have done in any car that required something stupid like 4.8 quarts with filter, it gets 5, move on, nothing to see here, nothing to worry about. Just search my user name here, I have a thread on this issue and was flamed up one side and down the other, but I will be having the last laugh on this one!!

Um yea, I do know a bit more than some of the people that design these vehicle and other brand vehicles. Understand that designs are usually not based on 100% reliability, rarely have the safety margins that they should and there are other factors like $$$$$. Again, design down to a price, not to a level or reliability. I have seen SO MANY STUPID design choices over the years, this is why the aftermarket has so many solutions for many of these poor design choices as well as people like myself have modified and corrected design deficiencies.

You may think the 10 speed is a rock solid transmission, while overall it is very good, there have been a number of problems with clutch pack drums, GM's stupid helical cut pump gears and some other problem areas, the VALVE BODIES are a PROBLEM. Over 500,000 vehicles have been recalled due to the valve body problem. GM took an approach of performing a Software Update for a Hardware Problem!! Not ideal, they chose to not take full responsibility for the problem, because with the all the engine and transmission failures it would likely bankrupt GM.

Trust me, I expect to also see the 2023-2025 model trucks to have the same valve body recall. I just do not know how deep into the 2025 model year they will recall them because GM may have started to push out the updated TCM software that is supposed to detect the valve body problems. Great in theory, they clearly sold this idea to NHTSA, but is this a 100% way to solve the problem, not in my book.

Not so worried about the modified valve body causing problems, if there are problems they should show up pretty quickly after the modifications, otherwise, I expect the modifications to outlast an OE valve body.

Start researching the 10 speed problems, they are happening more and more frequently as these trucks age and usually occur before the Powertrain Warranty has expired, some afterwards. I have seen some have problem in less than 1000 miles. As I post this there are people that have been out of their cars for 3-4 or more months waiting on a replacement valve body that is not likely much better than the one coming out of their vehicle. Additionally once enough "new" valve bodies have charged the pipeline, all the others will be remanufactured!!

We shall see what happens, I am confident in my work and will decide if I am comfortable with the aftermarket parts, but in general they are far superior than what ships with the OE valve bodies, aluminum pistons operating in aluminum bores with Ultra Low Viscosity transmission fluid is not going to end well along with the thin paper gasket and thin valve body separator plate.

What are some design failures that you have seen?

Capacity spec for a 6.2 is 8 quarts with filter. 9 quarts sounds like a lot over. But if that's what you see on the dip it is what it is.

Whew.
Good luck man. Hopefully you don't find out the hard way. Let us know if you do.

 

[Fless]

Not so worried about fluid dripping, it will only drip so long. Not a problem is you have a decent drain pan!! Some folks miss the big picture on drain pans!!

Best $8 drain pan for large oil sumps and transmission work!

This is exactly the pan I use for antifreeze and other fluids that are likely to have a larger footprint when draining. Cheap, reliable, good capacity and easy to use.

 

[jfoj]

The valve bodies are junk. The paper gasket on the valve steel valve body separator plate with the number of bolts and the expansion differences between the aluminum valve body, the THIN separator plate cause the paper to fail/tear and there are internal passage leaks within the valve body. The leaks can become so bad this is what is causing a 4th clutch pack to be turned on locking up the transmission/drivetrain. People have had the wheels lock at speed due to this problem. This is why there was a recall on this 10 speed transmission. I have followed A NUMBER of 2023-2025 valve body failures, it is not IF, but WHEN. GM has not solved/corrected this problem.

The aluminum spool valves are wearing at a fast rate and can also damage the aluminum valve body bores especially with the Ultra Low Viscosity transmission fluid. The helical cut pump drive gears are wearing the bosses they ride on, Ford used straight cut gears and is not seeing this problem. Most rebuilder install the Ford pump drive gear sets when the GM gears start whining. If you catch it in time, you can just swap the gears, if you wait too long, then more hard parts are needed. There have been some drum weld failures and piston related problems. Hopefully most of these problems have been ironed out by now??? Most of these are "design" choices/deficiencies.

The GM oil fill "SPEC" for the 6.2l with filter is WRONG. Just look at the dipstick with 8 quarts during a oil change, it is about 2/3 a quart low. GM CLEARLY fills these engines at the factory ABOVE their "spec"!!!! While some may say if the oil level is within the "hash marks" it is full, it is not, the level is just not quite 1 quart low. Why start out with an oil change with almost 1 quart low on oil??? These engines need all the oil they can get and it cannot be fuel diluted! Almost every 6.2l failure is oil related or lack of enough non fuel contaminated oil!

 

[jfoj]

This is exactly the pan I use for antifreeze and other fluids that are likely to have a larger footprint when draining. Cheap, reliable, good capacity and easy to use.

Yup, best antifreeze/cooling system drain pan going!!! You can also pick it up and move it without too much fear of it twisting on you, but you still need to be careful.

I have a smaller rectangular "official" oil drain pan from the parts store that can barely hold the 8-9 quarts of oil from the engine, do not even think about picking that stupid pan up to drain the oil, it will twist like crazy with a full engine oil change in it. The drain edge is crap on this smaller pan as well. I just use my oil extractor to empty the pan rather than trying to hold the pan full of oil.

Can't beat the $8 pan from Lowe's, Home Depot or other hardware/home stores. They have a deeper and more expensive version, but you do not really need it.

 

[jfoj]

Interesting YouTube video on the valve body problems. This is pretty much the reason I am updating the valve body at 6k miles with no obvious problem at this point. But who knows, after the update, I may see/feel a significant change in shift performance.

YouTube Video On Valve Body Problems

 

[jfoj]

Just another indicator that these valve bodies are junk!!

I will confirm once I pull my valve body if the screen are still inside the valve body on the separator plate. GM chose to use STEEL so the screen parts come apart and then are attracted to the electromagnetic solenoids. The strands also get stuck in the spool valves as well. The word from the rebuilders is to do away with the screens and deal with any debris that should not be in the valve body passages!

Valve Body Torn Screen

 

[viven44]

@jfoj good project, and I think @DuraYuk has brought in some valid concerns about warranty.

My only suggestion is to source a spare valve body pulled off from a parts vehicle on Facebook or eBay and use it to install the kit you have purchased. I don't know much about these newer transmissions, but I assume these valve bodies just bolt up into the transmission body and plug and play just fine without need for software/reprogramming. I am used to playing with old vacuum/hydraulic operated units so may be simplistic in my thinking.

I think it would be best to save the factory valve body and preserve it AS-IS for what it's worth. It may or may not be useful later, but you can always just swap back to it or maybe use it on another truck later with any modifications. Having a working spare is just peace of mind.

 

[jfoj]

@viven44

Appreciate the concern, however, there are some issues that need to be outlined here.

1. Valve bodies are somewhat "tailored" to the vehicle and application. While this may not be 100% as true today with the TCM in more modern vehicles being able to be programmed for torque management, there are still some springs, some running changes and so forth that might be a bit different. This is why I ALWAYS prefer to stay with the original valve body and rework it rather than having some sort of "exchange" unit, which is what all the GM vehicles that may have future valve body problems.

2. In my case, I do not expect to need to have any valve body bores "reamed or oversized" with only 6k miles on the truck. Every part of the NextGen Project Carbon kit is an improved quality part with a few small exceptions that I believe is for the lube circuit. I do not believe that any parts are "drilled or oversized" at this point. The primary problem area that this valve body kit addresses is the subpar valve body separator plate that is thin, has thin paper gaskets and likely has small filter screens embossed in the thin paper gasket. Given the working pressures of this transmission, I fully believe the valve body separator plate system is under designed and a severe weak point, I think this is well documented within the aftermarket as well as clear by the 500,000 or so transmission related recalls that will likely grow soon for newer models.

3. I will roll the dice with the "Warranty". The problem with the "Warranty" it is only as good as the parts available and if the parts can be obtained. At the moment the "Warranty" is pretty much useless. There have been people waiting 1-5+ months for valve bodies at this point in time. Will this change, sure it will get better at some point, but the replacement valve bodies will not be significantly improved based on my experience. Again, GM will worry about cost and they just want these items to get beyond any Warranty period, the only problem is on some of these vehicles, the Valve Body and ONLY Valve Body Warranty has been extended to 15 years/150,000 miles. But like any good corporation, they will hedge their bet that they will only need to replace a very small percentage of valve bodies after the vehicles that have been recalled with the TCM update and they expect to typically replace only a single valve body, but there will be cases of multiple valve body problems.

4. If I have any future problems during the Warranty period, I will getting a used valve body and swapping it back in just so I can keep the valve body I have invested money in and I will go thru the original valve body and inspect it for wear and correct any wear issues and reinstall it after any "Warranty" repair has been completed. What I do not what is the valve body that I have improved to be sent back as a core if there is a full transmission exchange. But if I have any problems within the Warranty period, I may just foot the bill if I plan on keeping the truck and having one of a few transmission shops I trust fully upgrade the transmission with the latest and greatest known parts that are either OEM or aftermarket.

I have absolutely ZERO confidence in GM's approach to PROPERLY resolve the transmission lock up/wheel lock up problem. GM's first solution is to update the TCM software to try and offset or reduce a mechanical problem in the transmission. A software solution for degraded hardware is NOT a fix! Additionally even if my vehicle or others do not come down to the transmission lock up/wheel lock up problem, premature valve body wear WILL cause premature transmission wear which will require the transmission to be removed, inspected and rebuilt. My goal is to head off BOTH the transmission lock up/wheel lock up problem as well as premature clutch pack and torque converter wear. Unfortunately I have no plans on pulling the transmission out at this point in time, if I did, I would replace the stupid helical cut pump drive gears with the Ford straight cut pump drive gears to head off transmission pump whine and gear wear. The problem is the helical cut pump drive gears are likely to wear more on vehicles with the Auto Stop/Start disabled, but this is a price we may have to pay. I am in the habit of putting the transmission in Neutral at longer stops to unload the transmission as a way to hopefully cut down on increased wear, but who knows if this is really 100% effective.

I expect that if enough complaints are filed with the NHTSA on the 2023-2025 models, they will also be recalled for the exact same problem with transmission lock up/wheel lock up. I am not sure I have found any specific cases for these years yet, but I have read any of a number of transmission related problems even into the 2025 models with under 1000 miles, that all lead to 100% valve body leakage problems. Unfortunately reflecting back on the 6 and 8 speeds this valve body leakage problem seems to have impacted a percentage of those transmissions as well. I just do not think the transmission lock up/wheel lock up problem occurred in the 6 & 8 speed transmission due to their overall design. The customers were just left dealing with transmission failures both in and out of Warranty.

As I may have mentioned before, people spend their money how they see fit, some spend more than I am spending on aftermarket wheels and tires, exhaust systems, audio upgrades, extended warranties and so forth.

I am putting my money to where I know if needs to be spent to hopefully totally eliminate problems with transmission lock up/wheel lock up and premature transmission clutch pack wear.

Similar to some things I have done to hopefully prolong the life of the 6.2l engine in my truck as well.

Maybe this is all a waste of time and money, but I do not think this is the case based on my research and experience in the automotive world which goes back a few years to include rebuilding and repairing automatic transmissions over the years.