Bilstein shocks, end links, sway bars = awesome

[jmil1974]

Is the rear bar adjustable, like my Hellwig set up? I have mine adjusted to the middle setting and it is quite great and wondering what the stiffest setting would be like.

No sir, it is fixed.

 

[Joseph Garcia]

OK. Now that you have your best setup, have you collected any performance improvement data yet?

For example, both @OR VietVet and I have test cloverleafs, where we can definitively document any performance improvement changes associated with aftermarket suspension/handling additions. I'd be real interested in hearing about any documented performance improvements that you've seen with your new setup.

I wish you the best of outcomes with it.

 

[jmil1974]

Great question and obviously no. Why? Because I know that to get *real* data with sufficient statistical power to be meaningful is a VERY high bar, higher than most people have ever seen unless they are professional engineers with a test budget paid for by someone else. Do you test your setups before and after, at least three times under precisely the same test conditions? Same vehicles, same day, same tire brand, same tire size, same wheel size, same tire pressure, same vehicle temps, same pavement temps, same entry speeds, same throttle position, same turn in points, same turn in rates, etc? If not, then you don't have enough statistical power to hang your hat on. To correctly interpret said data is even more difficult many times. I gave my opinion based on physics principles that I understand related to the dimensions and materials of the sway bar, attachment points, and all the links in the system, among many others. Knowing the bar materials are VERY similar, the dimensions identical in the front bar and within 1mm (~3%) in the rear, identical rear links, and better front links, it is REASONABLE to expect marginally better performance than Hellwig. Given the smaller but adjustable rear - there may be a small difference either way, or it may be so close on a graph it overlays - which is what I would bet on. If I knew the spacing of the holes on the adjustable rear bar, we could get it even closer, in comparison. If you have the Hellwigs (which again are awesome) and haven't upgraded the front links, you are leaving some flex in the front anti-roll bar system and therefore some performance on the table. If we wanted to go through the exercise, I would bet any difference in the two setups would likely be in the noise, especially if you have upgraded the front links. I can say this with certainty: I have eliminated a metric shit ton of flex in both the front and rear anti-roll systems using the biggest, beefiest parts on the market, to the point where the weakest link is the attachment points on one end, and tires on the other. If we lived closer, it would be a hoot to run them over and over, then switch tire/wheels to compare and average, using the video to pull some measurements from (I have done this with jump height blowing up SUVs and other fun stuff), we could put some reasonable numbers on it. I also have enough experience and repetition with these components and systems to recognize trends and stand behind what I said 100%. Said another way, if I am buying ONLY what comes in the Nolathane kit (no links at all) vs only what comes in the Hellwig kit, I am betting the Hellwig kit would be marginally better. I was able to make up the difference by buying actual Hellwig rear links to make it "even" and then the Spohn front links to make it slightly "better." That said, if we both took our vehicles around the same "course" at identical speeds a few times and then switched cars, I doubt we'd be able to tell much difference, i.e. both would feel awesome in equal measure. When the setups are that closely matched, it is rarely worth the effort to reliably quantify any difference in performance. I don't ever mind spending more to get more but when you figure in that I also saved a C-note or two, that makes it a winner to most folks. No wishing needed, I am certain we both have gotten excellent outcomes.

 

[OR VietVet]

Great question and obviously no. Why? Because I know that to get *real* data with sufficient statistical power to be meaningful is a VERY high bar, higher than most people have ever seen unless they are professional engineers with a test budget paid for by someone else. Do you test your setups before and after, at least three times under precisely the same test conditions? Same vehicles, same day, same tire brand, same tire size, same wheel size, same tire pressure, same vehicle temps, same pavement temps, same entry speeds, same throttle position, same turn in points, same turn in rates, etc? If not, then you don't have enough statistical power to hang your hat on. To correctly interpret said data is even more difficult many times. I gave my opinion based on physics principles that I understand related to the dimensions and materials of the sway bar, attachment points, and all the links in the system, among many others. Knowing the bar materials are VERY similar, the dimensions identical in the front bar and within 1mm (~3%) in the rear, identical rear links, and better front links, it is REASONABLE to expect marginally better performance than Hellwig. Given the smaller but adjustable rear - there may be a small difference either way, or it may be so close on a graph it overlays - which is what I would bet on. If I knew the spacing of the holes on the adjustable rear bar, we could get it even closer, in comparison. If you have the Hellwigs (which again are awesome) and haven't upgraded the front links, you are leaving some flex in the front anti-roll bar system and therefore some performance on the table. If we wanted to go through the exercise, I would bet any difference in the two setups would likely be in the noise, especially if you have upgraded the front links. I can say this with certainty: I have eliminated a metric shit ton of flex in both the front and rear anti-roll systems using the biggest, beefiest parts on the market, to the point where the weakest link is the attachment points on one end, and tires on the other. If we lived closer, it would be a hoot to run them over and over, then switch tire/wheels to compare and average, using the video to pull some measurements from (I have done this with jump height blowing up SUVs and other fun stuff), we could put some reasonable numbers on it. I also have enough experience and repetition with these components and systems to recognize trends and stand behind what I said 100%. Said another way, if I am buying ONLY what comes in the Nolathane kit (no links at all) vs only what comes in the Hellwig kit, I am betting the Hellwig kit would be marginally better. I was able to make up the difference by buying actual Hellwig rear links to make it "even" and then the Spohn front links to make it slightly "better." That said, if we both took our vehicles around the same "course" at identical speeds a few times and then switched cars, I doubt we'd be able to tell much difference, i.e. both would feel awesome in equal measure. When the setups are that closely matched, it is rarely worth the effort to reliably quantify any difference in performance. I don't ever mind spending more to get more but when you figure in that I also saved a C-note or two, that makes it a winner to most folks. No wishing needed, I am certain we both have gotten excellent outcomes.

Well versed and well said. I gotta agree. All, I know is, my crap sticks in the corners/curves and I have my rear set at the middle setting and I have noticed differences just by adjusting tire pressures. I know that one day I will set to the stiffest rating on the rear and then also adjust air pressures to see what I like best. I may love the stiffest setting at the rear with a lower air pressure and then get a "like" feeling going back to middle rear setting and higher air pressures. All I know is this, I get a "big *s*t*i*f*f*y*" when I am going thru a curve, either exit/entrance ramps or high speed curve on the highway and the sports car driver next to me or who is staring at me bug eyed in his/her rear view mirror doing everything they can to get out of my way. That's all the FEEL GOOD I need.

 

[Joseph Garcia]

Great question and obviously no. Why? Because I know that to get *real* data with sufficient statistical power to be meaningful is a VERY high bar, higher than most people have ever seen unless they are professional engineers with a test budget paid for by someone else. Do you test your setups before and after, at least three times under precisely the same test conditions? Same vehicles, same day, same tire brand, same tire size, same wheel size, same tire pressure, same vehicle temps, same pavement temps, same entry speeds, same throttle position, same turn in points, same turn in rates, etc? If not, then you don't have enough statistical power to hang your hat on. To correctly interpret said data is even more difficult many times. I gave my opinion based on physics principles that I understand related to the dimensions and materials of the sway bar, attachment points, and all the links in the system, among many others. Knowing the bar materials are VERY similar, the dimensions identical in the front bar and within 1mm (~3%) in the rear, identical rear links, and better front links, it is REASONABLE to expect marginally better performance than Hellwig. Given the smaller but adjustable rear - there may be a small difference either way, or it may be so close on a graph it overlays - which is what I would bet on. If I knew the spacing of the holes on the adjustable rear bar, we could get it even closer, in comparison. If you have the Hellwigs (which again are awesome) and haven't upgraded the front links, you are leaving some flex in the front anti-roll bar system and therefore some performance on the table. If we wanted to go through the exercise, I would bet any difference in the two setups would likely be in the noise, especially if you have upgraded the front links. I can say this with certainty: I have eliminated a metric shit ton of flex in both the front and rear anti-roll systems using the biggest, beefiest parts on the market, to the point where the weakest link is the attachment points on one end, and tires on the other. If we lived closer, it would be a hoot to run them over and over, then switch tire/wheels to compare and average, using the video to pull some measurements from (I have done this with jump height blowing up SUVs and other fun stuff), we could put some reasonable numbers on it. I also have enough experience and repetition with these components and systems to recognize trends and stand behind what I said 100%. Said another way, if I am buying ONLY what comes in the Nolathane kit (no links at all) vs only what comes in the Hellwig kit, I am betting the Hellwig kit would be marginally better. I was able to make up the difference by buying actual Hellwig rear links to make it "even" and then the Spohn front links to make it slightly "better." That said, if we both took our vehicles around the same "course" at identical speeds a few times and then switched cars, I doubt we'd be able to tell much difference, i.e. both would feel awesome in equal measure. When the setups are that closely matched, it is rarely worth the effort to reliably quantify any difference in performance. I don't ever mind spending more to get more but when you figure in that I also saved a C-note or two, that makes it a winner to most folks. No wishing needed, I am certain we both have gotten excellent outcomes.

I was not suggesting a clinical trial setup to assess the definitive performance performance improvement of the mod, though I could as I have a Masters Degree in that area. I was talking about a simple performance test, in this case, on the cloverleaf to see (1) if the amount of body roll decreased, and (2) if you were able to increase MPH when pushing to the point of tire squeal. Real simple, but real definitive, not to mention a lot of fun, at least for some of us. In addition to 'feeling' it, I can measure the amount of body roll change with my Tech 2 in real time while performing the test. For @OR VietVet and me, performance testing is just the final phase of evaluating the results of a significant mod project to let us know if our money was well spent on the mod.

This conversation is about personal performance evaluation testing before and after mod on the truck, and not about whether Nolathane sway bars are superior or not to Hellwig sway bars.

 

[jmil1974]

I was not suggesting a clinical trial setup to assess the definitive performance performance improvement of the mod, though I could as I have a Masters Degree in that area. I was talking about a simple performance test, in this case, on the cloverleaf to see (1) if the amount of body roll decreased, and (2) if you were able to increase MPH when pushing to the point of tire squeal. Real simple, but real definitive, not to mention a lot of fun, at least for some of us. In addition to 'feeling' it, I can measure the amount of body roll change with my Tech 2 in real time while performing the test. For @OR VietVet and me, performance testing is just the final phase of evaluating the results of a significant mod project to let us know if our money was well spent on the mod.

This conversation is about personal performance evaluation testing before and after mod on the truck, and not about whether Nolathane sway bars are superior or not to Hellwig sway bars.

That is great info about the Tech2, never occurred to me! That would make it a shit ton easier to get. Will the Chinese knockoff Tech2s do it too or does it have to be GM?

 

[Joseph Garcia]

That is great info about the Tech2, never occurred to me! That would make it a shit ton easier to get. Will the Chinese knockoff Tech2s do it too or does it have to be GM?

The Chinese Tech 2 knockoffs do exactly the same as a GM Tech 2. I have a Chinese knockoff Tech 2, and it works just fine for me.

 

[iamdub]

Ok, after multiple SNAFUs - one UPS' fault, the other the manufacturer's - I got my sway bars in today and installed this evening. It's this kit here: https://www.nolathane.com/collections/all/products/rev013-0030-sway-bar-vehicle-kit I got the Spohn SEL-19-416 front and HELLWIG 7961 rear links because the OEMs are weak and were shot. The front bar is the largest you can get on these trucks - 38mm/1.5" solid - same as the Hellwig. The rear is 33mm/1.29" solid, 1mm larger than the Hellwig. The Hellwig front reuses stock end links, rear includes their rear links. I am confident that with the Spohn front links and the marginally thicker rear bar, I have the best setup available for these trucks. No downing Hellwig, it's clearly an awesome product but I saved ~$150 and still got stout front links and ever so slightly thicker rear bar. Even knowing what to expect (this is my fifth vehicle to upgrade sway bars), the improvement is DRAMATIC. Holy SHIT this thing turns and stays glass table flat. I've only done surface roads, no sweeping highway flyovers or U-turn exits...that will come. Even so, this is THE setup for these trucks IMHO. I've been left impressed with several vehicles with the magnaride shocks but I will take these all day long...especially if/when the time comes to replace them. Regardless, every car, truck and SUV should have monster anti-roll bars if you actually enjoy driving. The amount of confidence and comfort for both driver and passengers is noticeably improved over factory and it's 95% as cushy as stock just driving around. Even turning in the driveway is improved, it's that dramatic of an improvement with almost no downside. Supply chain ******** is still a thing and this is $1200 in parts but were I buying this truck new, I'd happily pay double that for this as a factory option. With this and the Hawk LTS brake pads, she is ready for 20s (has the 17s now) and a power upgrade. Absolutely transformed this truck from a comfy but wallowy pig to responsive, flat turning, great handling vehicle that to most people is still factory comfortable. It really has no business driving this well, but it does. Highly recommend Bilstein shocks and the biggest solid sway bars you can find!!

Damn you.

 

[Dustin Jackson]

I deleted my front sway bar last week, interesting contrast between users