Exhaust Manifold Leak (Suspected): Tips, Suggestions, Experience?

[CruelJung]

I have been driving my '08 Yukon XL for nearly four years now, and it has always made a 'ticking' noise on cold startup. This noise subsides within a minute or so, as the engine temperature rises. No CEL or codes. Over the past four years I have been gaining more automotive knowledge and competency, as well as developing a general obsession with this vehicle--how it runs, how it sounds, how my maintenance/repair choices will affect a trajectory towards supercharging one day...

So, I started chasing this 'ticking' noise a few months ago because I noticed an exaggerated form of it under load while driving with the window down. When looking for a busted exhaust manifold bolt, I found that the second-to-rearmost manifold bolt on the passenger side was loose enough to turn with my fingers. There was also soot visible in a few areas above and below the manifold flange. I torqued all 12 bolts to 18 ft. lbs.--noting that all but one bolt were under 11 ft. lbs.--and the result was less noise for less time when cold starting and still noise under load.

Having some free time, last week, I decided to revisit the manifold bolts again because the cold start 'tick' duration seemed to be increasing. Sure enough, the bolts were under the 18 ft. lb. torque spec again and--once re-torqued--the cold start noise level and duration were reduced.

Presuming that the sound (when cold and under load, but dissipating in idle from cold to operating temperature), visible soot, loose bolts (potentially walked out and damaged gasket seal?) point towards an exhaust leak, I am planning to do the following:


1. Replace the current, rusty hardware with ARP header bolts
a. Leaning towards ARP 434-1102 (SS, hex)
b. Considering ARP 434-1301 (SS, stud/nut)

2. In conjunction, replace the exhaust manifold gasket (without removing manifold entirely--i.e., not disconnecting from Y-pipe)
a. Leaning towards OEM (Genuine GM), AC Delco, or Mahle
b. Considering a Remflex gasket or double Remflex gasket to compensate for any warping of the manifold

3. See what happens
a. If the sound persists, I will try to tighten the studs (manifold to Y-pipe).
b. If sound STILL persists after "a.", then I will remove manifold entirely to inspect, replace manifold-to-Y-pipe gaskets, and potentially replace the manifold.


With all of that said, do any of you with experience have some advice for the materials, process, or--for that matter--diagnosis?

 

[j91z28d1]

just my opinion and others do completely different and it works well for them too. but I like exhaust manifold studs. I feel like stainless steel is to soft for small m8 these engines use. I like the Dorman ones of all things, originally found them listed for a mustang, since they use the same size. but different amount M8x1.25 is the size.) don't rust are 10.8 grade and the nuts are flanged crimp locking nuts, so I've never had one come loose.

to me the oem gaskets have been good, but I have no experience with the others, they might be good too.

for exhaust leaks, the best way I've found to find then is the mechanic stethoscope but remove the metal tip so you have a open hose, run that hose along anywhere you might have a leak and you'll hear a puff puff puff clear as day.

 

[j91z28d1]

these were on the car about 5 years..

I only recently removed them because the headers I bought came with titanium Hardware, which I'm scared is to soft was well, but I gotta admit it's kinda special looking and when you put 2500$ headers on your car, you do dumb things for looks sometimes haha.

the arp bolts are strong, but without a locking thing, I'm not sure they are really much better for you. someone found a set of bolts that are split with a set screw in the middle. once you tq the bolt you tighten the set screw to lock the bolt. I've used them on old school 3/8 sbc stuff because you need all the room you can get and studs don't work. had good results with them in that size.

 

[CruelJung]

just my opinion and others do completely different and it works well for them too. but I like exhaust manifold studs. I feel like stainless steel is to soft for small m8 these engines use. I like the Dorman ones of all things, originally found them listed for a mustang, since they use the same size. but different amount M8x1.25 is the size.) don't rust are 10.8 grade and the nuts are flanged crimp locking nuts, so I've never had one come loose.

to me the oem gaskets have been good, but I have no experience with the others, they might be good too.

for exhaust leaks, the best way I've found to find then is the mechanic stethoscope but remove the metal tip so you have a open hose, run that hose along anywhere you might have a leak and you'll hear a puff puff puff clear as day.

these were on the car about 5 years..

I only recently removed them because the headers I bought came with titanium Hardware, which I'm scared is to soft was well, but I gotta admit it's kinda special looking and when you put 2500$ headers on your car, you do dumb things for looks sometimes haha.

the arp bolts are strong, but without a locking thing, I'm not sure they are really much better for you. someone found a set of bolts that are split with a set screw in the middle. once you tq the bolt you tighten the set screw to lock the bolt. I've used them on old school 3/8 sbc stuff because you need all the room you can get and studs don't work. had good results with them in that size.

View attachment 439504

I am considering shorty headers if I have to replace my iron manifolds for any reason, but would prefer to keep my OEM metal until further along in my performance upgrade arc. In fact, while this vehicle is my daily driver, I do have access to a sandblaster and large belt sander if I wanted to remove rust and warping from my current manifolds--it would just put my vehicle off the road for a few days.

I like the ARP product from what I have read and understand in these forums, especially regarding the re-use aspect because I have no idea how many times I will have to re-do or check my work--not to mention further upgrades in the future. The reason I am considering the stud/nut style (from ARP) is because it seems like it would make the manifold removal/replacement easier with the studs as guides. I didn't mention it earlier, since I am very much leaning towards ARP, but I have also looked into the locking style header bolts with oblong washers and c-clips. However, I prefer--in theory--the less complicated and seemingly invincible ARP hex bolt with the addition of threadlocker.

I am curious, though, why are you concerned about stainless steel and titanium being too soft for this application?

Thanks for the tip about the stethoscope! I've meant to purchase one for some time now and always forget--finally bought one.

Regarding the gasket, I think I will go for the OEM style first and see if that works. I was only put under the impression that doubling up on the gasket can work by some anecdotes from automotive-minded individuals I know, but I think they were referring to the composite style gasket which is more or less of consistent thickness. The OEM, MLS gasket for these Vortecs seems to have a greater thickness around port holes, so I don't think doubling would be a good idea unless someone with experience can tell me otherwise. Additionally, I've read that while these thicker, composite aftermarket gaskets (Remflex: 50% crushable graphite, etc.) give a great seal initially, they tend to break and blow out later.

I took a video of my cold startup noise and will post it here, shortly.

 

[CruelJung]

I have been driving my '08 Yukon XL for nearly four years now, and it has always made a 'ticking' noise on cold startup. This noise subsides within a minute or so, as the engine temperature rises. No CEL or codes. Over the past four years I have been gaining more automotive knowledge and competency, as well as developing a general obsession with this vehicle--how it runs, how it sounds, how my maintenance/repair choices will affect a trajectory towards supercharging one day...

So, I started chasing this 'ticking' noise a few months ago because I noticed an exaggerated form of it under load while driving with the window down. When looking for a busted exhaust manifold bolt, I found that the second-to-rearmost manifold bolt on the passenger side was loose enough to turn with my fingers. There was also soot visible in a few areas above and below the manifold flange. I torqued all 12 bolts to 18 ft. lbs.--noting that all but one bolt were under 11 ft. lbs.--and the result was less noise for less time when cold starting and still noise under load.

Having some free time, last week, I decided to revisit the manifold bolts again because the cold start 'tick' duration seemed to be increasing. Sure enough, the bolts were under the 18 ft. lb. torque spec again and--once re-torqued--the cold start noise level and duration were reduced.

Presuming that the sound (when cold and under load, but dissipating in idle from cold to operating temperature), visible soot, loose bolts (potentially walked out and damaged gasket seal?) point towards an exhaust leak, I am planning to do the following:


1. Replace the current, rusty hardware with ARP header bolts
a. Leaning towards ARP 434-1102 (SS, hex)
b. Considering ARP 434-1301 (SS, stud/nut)

2. In conjunction, replace the exhaust manifold gasket (without removing manifold entirely--i.e., not disconnecting from Y-pipe)
a. Leaning towards OEM (Genuine GM), AC Delco, or Mahle
b. Considering a Remflex gasket or double Remflex gasket to compensate for any warping of the manifold

3. See what happens
a. If the sound persists, I will try to tighten the studs (manifold to Y-pipe).
b. If sound STILL persists after "a.", then I will remove manifold entirely to inspect, replace manifold-to-Y-pipe gaskets, and potentially replace the manifold.


With all of that said, do any of you with experience have some advice for the materials, process, or--for that matter--diagnosis?

Below is a video of my driver side wheel well during a cold start, after I re-torqued all the manifold bolts. It begins 20 seconds or so after I started the engine, but it captures how the sound dissipates within that minute time frame.

 

[j91z28d1]

I think I'd find it confirm you have a leak before taking it apart. it's been my experience these metal gaskets don't blow out. that's why the clamps work so well. my yukon was leaking from a broken bolt, probably been like that for years. added a clamp and it sealed right up, didn't need to replace gaskets.

as for ss and ti. my feeling is the m8 bolts are under sized for the manifolds as they should have been the next size up and we wouldn't have bolts breaking off in the heads. yeah gm could have used stronger bolts, but no one else needs to do that to seal manifolds. they just size bolts correctly.

ss and ti are usually softer than steel bolts and these days most boot/studs are plated to avoid rusting.

arp might be doing something special to their ss to make it strong as standard? but the ss hardwear I deal with is soft and mostly annoying.

I've had good luck with the $20 stud kit with lock nuts that were in stock at by local O'Reilly. so I usually recommend those. since arp is very expensive, being used on a daily driver and don't have lock nuts?

 

[CruelJung]

I think I'd find it confirm you have a leak before taking it apart. it's been my experience these metal gaskets don't blow out. that's why the clamps work so well. my yukon was leaking from a broken bolt, probably been like that for years. added a clamp and it sealed right up, didn't need to replace gaskets.

as for ss and ti. my feeling is the m8 bolts are under sized for the manifolds as they should have been the next size up and we wouldn't have bolts breaking off in the heads. yeah gm could have used stronger bolts, but no one else needs to do that to seal manifolds. they just size bolts correctly.

ss and ti are usually softer than steel bolts and these days most boot/studs are plated to avoid rusting.

arp might be doing something special to their ss to make it strong as standard? but the ss hardwear I deal with is soft and mostly annoying.

I've had good luck with the $20 stud kit with lock nuts that were in stock at by local O'Reilly. so I usually recommend those. since arp is very expensive, being used on a daily driver and don't have lock nuts?

Yeah, I have been sitting on this for some time (since there are no codes, yet) while trying to learn about it and gather the tools--I certainly don't want to cause a new problem trying to solve the wrong problem (or a non-existent one). Did you have a chance to watch the video I posted and have an opinion on the sound?

Thanks for expounding on your thoughts, regarding the metals, I think I see what you're saying now. I admittedly just followed the advice from the threads I've seen on this topic to arrive at an ARP product, and presumed that these bolts are the premier solution for replacements--i.e., no problems. However, I did not notice (I could've missed, perhaps) technical discussion about the metal choice/treatment, size, or type. ARP lists nine different sets of M8 options for these engines: stainless 300 stud/nut, stainless 300 12-pt and hex (each head style with either 1/4" flange and .984" under head length or 3/8" flange and 1.181 under head length), and black oxide chrome moly 12-pt and hex (same options as the stainless 300).

Additionally, the site has this to say: "Studs and bolts come either black oxide chrome moly or Stainless 300. Both are nominally rated at 170,000 psi tensile strength; substantially stronger than Grade 8 hardware."

All of this had my head spinning, but it looked like the more accessible bolt brands' products for my vehicle (Dorman, Fel-Pro) at Autozone were 30-30.7 mm (1.181-1.208") in length so I figured either ARP flange size or UHL would work?

I am not bound to ARP by any means, but I don't mind dropping the money on the right (or more-than-right) product. I went the higher end route with my catch can, also, and plan to do the same with some Hellwig sway bars in the next 6-12 months...it's how I satisfy my inner demons, I suppose.

Ultimately, I am interested to know what you and others think about the sound I'm hearing. After all this, I'm wondering if I should just go for the doughnut gaskets between the manifolds and Y-pipe first. I'm curious if the rattling-esque sound in the ensemble is one or both of those doughnut gaskets clanking around, loose from shrinking or distorting over all the 196,000 miles?

I haven't had time yet, but I will hunt around again soon with my stethoscope and take some pictures of the junctions in question while I'm in/down there.

 

[Charlie207]

I would just install new MLS (multi-layer steel) manifold gaskets, and new bolts or studs, and call it a day.

Shorty headers provide zero performace gain over the factory LS cast manifolds. So, unless you want the look or sound (might do something?), then you're just burning money. Long-tube headers DO give you a big performance bump over OEM manifolds, but then you'd need to dump a lot more $$$ into a revised tune, and reusing or buying new catalytic converters. Texas Speed, among other spots sells a full header w/cats & Y-pipe kit, but your gonna spend over $2k.

These are the stainless Dorman studs I used, and needed 2x kits from the Jungle website: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BHZYNW7W?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

For years I used the Dorman exhaust leak clamps on my 5.3, because I had a bunch of broken manifold bolts. The clamps helped make most, but not all, of my cold-start ticking go away. I should have just replaced the manifold gaskets, but I was scared of breaking all the bolts. Funny thing is, when I pulled that motor they all came out fine, even the broken bolts that stuck out of the cylider head. I was able to clamp some vice grips on them and wiggle them out.

 

[Fless]

I would just install new MLS (multi-layer steel) manifold gaskets, and new bolts or studs, and call it a day.

Shorty headers provide zero performace gain over the factory LS cast manifolds. So, unless you want the look or sound (might do something?), then you're just burning money. Long-tube headers DO give you a big performance bump over OEM manifolds, but then you'd need to dump a lot more $$$ into a revised tune, and reusing or buying new catalytic converters. Texas Speed, among other spots sells a full header w/cats & Y-pipe kit, but your gonna spend over $2k.

These are the stainless Dorman studs I used, and needed 2x kits from the Jungle website: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BHZYNW7W?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

For years I used the Dorman exhaust leak clamps on my 5.3, because I had a bunch of broken manifold bolts. The clamps helped make most, but not all, of my cold-start ticking go away. I should have just replaced the manifold gaskets, but I was scared of breaking all the bolts. Funny thing is, when I pulled that motor they all came out fine, even the broken bolts that stuck out of the cylider head. I was able to clamp some vice grips on them and wiggle them out.

There are various grades of stainless steel; I wish Dorman would specify more specifically what they're made of.

 

[j91z28d1]

so I can't find what I'm looking for, but I also didn't realize what arp is calling stainless steel header bolts/studs is 170k psi. that's some specialty stuff, I'm not sure there's much stainless about that metal besides not rusting lol. but seem like good stuff. personally I'd like a hex tip to the stud to help install and removeal, they come in handy and a crimp style lock nut, and not huge fan of 12 point since I don't have any 12 point sockets. well a few. but they seem to be a high rated strong stud.


this more what I'm use to for stainless


"The hardest and strongest of the hex bolts

Despite the popular belief, a stainless steel bolt is actually weaker than a grade 8 bolt. In fact, according to the Society of American Engineers (SAE), grade 8 bolts are the strongest and hardest hex bolt you would want to use in constructions or the automotive industry. While the carbon alloy bolts have a proof load of over 120,000 psi, their stainless steel counterparts don't carry an indicative proof load. Moreover, the minimum strength of grade 8 bolts is around 130,000 psi, whereas stainless steel strength doesn't exceed 90,000 psi."

grade 8 being about metric grade 10.9. the dorman studs have a 10.9 grade nut on them, so I'd hope the stud is rated the same. they aren't stainless steel because a magnetic will pick them up, just plated with something so they don't rust. probably zinc.

A Mini Guide On Grade 8 Bolts — Melfast

Grade 8 bolts are specified for high strength applications and are commonly used in heavy manufacturing, such as tractor and truck fabrication for instance. The bolts are typically made of a medium carbon alloy steel that is plated in zinc for extra resilience. The grade 8 bolt can be identified via

www.melfast.com

so yeah, it seems what arp is calling ss is very strong by the psi they give out.


either way, totally your call. I'd get that stethoscope and see if you can find the leak. it could be at the collector forsure. from the video that can definitely be an exhaust leak as it seems to go away as it warms up and everything expands. I'd personally confirm before taking everything apart thou but if you don't mind the work and money, definitely can't hurt