WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
TYF Newbie
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2015
- Posts
- 12
- Reaction score
- 58
Following this as a template for mine.
My ultimate 6.0L truck engine build
- Thread starter Matthew Jeschke
- Start date
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Kreativestreet
TYF Newbie
Appreciate the effort put in here but have to call out the elephant in the room .it’s overthought and underbuilt imho.
I’ll try to point out why and to preface this I have been building,tuning and racing gmt800s for over a decade and currently own 3 “05 avalanche 08 Escalade 03 denali xl “
Going 6.0 is a super smart move ,going lq9 pistons and rods with 317 heads is a no no for me here’s why.
When you use the 70cc 317 chamber to keep cr around 10 ish with the flat top pistons “lq9” you limit your cam choices due to ptv “piston to valve clearance “
It’s why Roger won’t recommend a high lift cam or long duration cam for that setup “I have used ALOT of Vinchi cams “
If your concern is octane you can work around it via tuning .
The way I always point any person wanting a high torque 6.0 is lq4 “dished piston “ and 243 heads to get the cr into the low 10s .
Leaves a lot of room for way longer duration and split lift cams to help torque production and won’t require dual valve springs or insane spring pressure “beehives preferred with proper trunion upgrades “
Next while going link bar lifters isn’t a bad thing it’s overkill and adds complexity that isn’t required or beneficial. I have plenty of 200k-300k mile engines in towing applications using nothing but good “real” Delphi ls7 lifters with zero issue .oiling is more your enemy in this regard vs the lifter failure .also pushrod diameter and weight is gonna be your problem hence I try to stay 5/16 .080 wall on most stock low rpm “below 6600rpm “ builds
Also if your 6.0 came with the square lower rod caps you could have just cleaned up used good rod and main bearings with new rings and already have a proven 1k capable rotating assembly since 03/4 up 6.0 used what became the gen 4 rods and the crank is and has never been a weak point on any of the LS/Vortec engine family
Tuning ,tuning and tuning is your biggest gain ,good injectors with known STABLE data is key ,”deatchwerks,injector dynamics “ you should be using a wideband to tune ,changing all that’s been changed and trusting the VE tables to be correct and praying your MAF tuning dials you in is a recipe for disaster .any decent wideband only costs 200 ish these days so why step over dollars to pick Pennie’s and yes you say your not going into PE or WOT ,but that’s only a under load situation ,your part throttle and low load areas may be massively lean or rolling rich that can cause a whole mess of issues .
I can go on and point to
Other things but it’s nitpicking and again while I can appreciate the effort I think more research would have been best and keep to the KISS method when it comes to torque builds .
Keep up the work either way and good luck
I’ll try to point out why and to preface this I have been building,tuning and racing gmt800s for over a decade and currently own 3 “05 avalanche 08 Escalade 03 denali xl “
Going 6.0 is a super smart move ,going lq9 pistons and rods with 317 heads is a no no for me here’s why.
When you use the 70cc 317 chamber to keep cr around 10 ish with the flat top pistons “lq9” you limit your cam choices due to ptv “piston to valve clearance “
It’s why Roger won’t recommend a high lift cam or long duration cam for that setup “I have used ALOT of Vinchi cams “
If your concern is octane you can work around it via tuning .
The way I always point any person wanting a high torque 6.0 is lq4 “dished piston “ and 243 heads to get the cr into the low 10s .
Leaves a lot of room for way longer duration and split lift cams to help torque production and won’t require dual valve springs or insane spring pressure “beehives preferred with proper trunion upgrades “
Next while going link bar lifters isn’t a bad thing it’s overkill and adds complexity that isn’t required or beneficial. I have plenty of 200k-300k mile engines in towing applications using nothing but good “real” Delphi ls7 lifters with zero issue .oiling is more your enemy in this regard vs the lifter failure .also pushrod diameter and weight is gonna be your problem hence I try to stay 5/16 .080 wall on most stock low rpm “below 6600rpm “ builds
Also if your 6.0 came with the square lower rod caps you could have just cleaned up used good rod and main bearings with new rings and already have a proven 1k capable rotating assembly since 03/4 up 6.0 used what became the gen 4 rods and the crank is and has never been a weak point on any of the LS/Vortec engine family
Tuning ,tuning and tuning is your biggest gain ,good injectors with known STABLE data is key ,”deatchwerks,injector dynamics “ you should be using a wideband to tune ,changing all that’s been changed and trusting the VE tables to be correct and praying your MAF tuning dials you in is a recipe for disaster .any decent wideband only costs 200 ish these days so why step over dollars to pick Pennie’s and yes you say your not going into PE or WOT ,but that’s only a under load situation ,your part throttle and low load areas may be massively lean or rolling rich that can cause a whole mess of issues .
I can go on and point to
Other things but it’s nitpicking and again while I can appreciate the effort I think more research would have been best and keep to the KISS method when it comes to torque builds .
Keep up the work either way and good luck
OP
OP
Matthew Jeschke
Full Access Member
Few notes / updates since last post...
Injectors: Switched to L59 flex fuel injectors. I'd not maxed out the stock 24lb / hr ones in the tune but they were leaking so I upgraded to the L59 ones. You can find them used for really cheap. I had to get adapters to switch to the other plug though. Then I had to space the rail as well as the injectors are taller. ICT Billet sold the rail spacers. They are 33 lb / hr with the 58 PSI fuel pump for non flex fuel trucks.
Intake: Installed a Banks Cold Air Intake. I don't know if was a good idea, as I want lots of low end vacuum. However, it should have lower intake temps now. My stock intake was in rough shape too.
Alternator: Installed a 250Amp Alternator from Tucson Alternator. My stock one went out.
Transmission: Entire different thread, I built up a 4L60E and installed it along with rebuilding the tx case.
Tuning: Running HP Tuners RTOS in Speed Density Mode. Fuel and PE are tuned using VE table. Haven't really messed with MAF. I also tuned idle air flow, etc. etc. etc. Copied over the LQ9 spark settings and am tuning spark now. Had been running LM7 baseline spark settings (bad? probably?). Been tuning a LOT too much to list all the details here.
AFR 205cc Mongoose Heads: I know everybody says to just use the 243 heads from the LM7. However, I was told I'd have to run premium gas. I didn't confirm that, probably should have measured the combustion chambers on them but didn't. Maybe I could have put a taller head gasket on? I don't know... but I used the 317 heads to be safe. Roger said the ultimate would be the Mongoose heads for my setup. They're not cheap by any means, but I'd order them bare w/o the springs and use the stuff he sold me.
LS1 Corvette Exhaust Manifolds: I'd LOVE to find a way to fit these on a truck. They're like shorty headers but cast. I personally prefer cast exhaust over headers. The LS1 manifolds will bolt up but they are plumbed differently so I don't know how to connect them to the downpipe.
Honestly, I think that would complete my ultimate build. That said I'd be well over 10k into the motor at that point....
Lifters: I got a screaming deal on the 2116 LSR lifters. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. That sent me down a rabbit whole buying lots of parts that didn't really benefit my end goal / build. That said those lifters are SUPER quiet which I think is making it easier to tune, less false knock... but I'm only comparing that to other people who say they get lots of false knock tuning. I have desensitized my knock sensors but not by nearly as much as other peoples tunes. Is it worth buying those lifters for that, probably not. They're really for high RPM builds. I'd go with a LS7 style lifter that has a link bar (or you can use the plastic trays if you're not **** like me). JUST make sure if they are plastic trays they're NEW OEM ones not generic.
LS1 Crankshaft: I'll never do this as I'd have to pull the motor again. I wish I'd installed the LS1 crankshaft. It's the same dimensions but a bit lighter. You can find them used for a reasonable price.
Piston Rings: Newer style piston rings aren't as thick. I'd get the thicker piston ring design. They must have switched somewhere during the Gen III production.
Oil Squirter Rods: GM did a limited casting run with oil squirter rods from the factory. I had a set but was nervous to use them so I sold them. I wish I'd installed them instead. They cool the pistons a little bit.
Factory Pistons versus aftermarket: I'd have gotten aftermarket pistons. Ones with a floating wrist pin type. I don't like the factory locking mechanism for the wrist pin either. Am I splitting hairs yeah, they probably never fail but I like something I KNOW is secured, not just a little clip that goes in a land. Additionally, something with a dish maybe could have accommodate perhaps those 248 heads at lower compression? Could I have made up the difference to use 87 octane gas? Maybe? I understand the smaller intake valve on the 248 heads is what helps contribute to the lower end torque (higher vacuum at lower RPM).
Matched combustion chambers: I am mainly doing this for fun, it's probably splitting hairs but I wish I'd measured the combustion chambers and matched them all to the same size. I went to trouble to polish them but didn't take time to match their size.
Tune with a wideband: make sure it's one you can do an open air calibration on. I lost a LOT of tuning due to issues with a pre calibrated sensor setup. Then had to buy an entire second wideband setup after they wouldn't warranty mine. I also chased my tail trying to tune part throttle cruise w/ narrow bands. Best to just use a wideband for the whole thing.
@Kreativestreet Thanks, would have been fun to chat with you prior to my build. Roger helped a LOT. I was amazed. His cost for the parts was peanuts compared to the help he gave me.
I didn't want a high lift cam. I specifically asked for something otherwise from him. I wanted dual valve springs too, not for the extra pressure but for redundancy. I actually wanted dual valve springs with a lower pressure if possible to reduce rotational load if any. I know that's not why most people buy them.
I felt more comfortable with a solid lifter guide versus those plastic trays. I hear lots of people have no issue with the plastic trays, but I sleep better at night knowing I have beefier guide for the lifters. Only trade off is I cannot easily swap a cam w/o removing the heads now. I personally really don't like the idea of the plastic trays functioning as a lifter guide much at all. I've had at least one immediate friend who burnt up his Gen III because of lifter failure. I personally, think those plastic guides don't stabilize the lifter like a metal one would. Maybe it's just me... but plastic? Really GM?
A failure to me, may mean loosing the entire truck with what I do or a VERY expensive recovery so much of my build focused around building in extra safeguards. Had I better spec'ed the parts it wouldn't have been quite as expensive for those little upgrades.
Upgraded following components
Injectors: Switched to L59 flex fuel injectors. I'd not maxed out the stock 24lb / hr ones in the tune but they were leaking so I upgraded to the L59 ones. You can find them used for really cheap. I had to get adapters to switch to the other plug though. Then I had to space the rail as well as the injectors are taller. ICT Billet sold the rail spacers. They are 33 lb / hr with the 58 PSI fuel pump for non flex fuel trucks.
Intake: Installed a Banks Cold Air Intake. I don't know if was a good idea, as I want lots of low end vacuum. However, it should have lower intake temps now. My stock intake was in rough shape too.
Alternator: Installed a 250Amp Alternator from Tucson Alternator. My stock one went out.
Transmission: Entire different thread, I built up a 4L60E and installed it along with rebuilding the tx case.
Tuning: Running HP Tuners RTOS in Speed Density Mode. Fuel and PE are tuned using VE table. Haven't really messed with MAF. I also tuned idle air flow, etc. etc. etc. Copied over the LQ9 spark settings and am tuning spark now. Had been running LM7 baseline spark settings (bad? probably?). Been tuning a LOT too much to list all the details here.
Wish list
AFR 205cc Mongoose Heads: I know everybody says to just use the 243 heads from the LM7. However, I was told I'd have to run premium gas. I didn't confirm that, probably should have measured the combustion chambers on them but didn't. Maybe I could have put a taller head gasket on? I don't know... but I used the 317 heads to be safe. Roger said the ultimate would be the Mongoose heads for my setup. They're not cheap by any means, but I'd order them bare w/o the springs and use the stuff he sold me.
LS1 Corvette Exhaust Manifolds: I'd LOVE to find a way to fit these on a truck. They're like shorty headers but cast. I personally prefer cast exhaust over headers. The LS1 manifolds will bolt up but they are plumbed differently so I don't know how to connect them to the downpipe.
Honestly, I think that would complete my ultimate build. That said I'd be well over 10k into the motor at that point....
Lessons learned
Lifters: I got a screaming deal on the 2116 LSR lifters. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. That sent me down a rabbit whole buying lots of parts that didn't really benefit my end goal / build. That said those lifters are SUPER quiet which I think is making it easier to tune, less false knock... but I'm only comparing that to other people who say they get lots of false knock tuning. I have desensitized my knock sensors but not by nearly as much as other peoples tunes. Is it worth buying those lifters for that, probably not. They're really for high RPM builds. I'd go with a LS7 style lifter that has a link bar (or you can use the plastic trays if you're not **** like me). JUST make sure if they are plastic trays they're NEW OEM ones not generic.
LS1 Crankshaft: I'll never do this as I'd have to pull the motor again. I wish I'd installed the LS1 crankshaft. It's the same dimensions but a bit lighter. You can find them used for a reasonable price.
Piston Rings: Newer style piston rings aren't as thick. I'd get the thicker piston ring design. They must have switched somewhere during the Gen III production.
Oil Squirter Rods: GM did a limited casting run with oil squirter rods from the factory. I had a set but was nervous to use them so I sold them. I wish I'd installed them instead. They cool the pistons a little bit.
Factory Pistons versus aftermarket: I'd have gotten aftermarket pistons. Ones with a floating wrist pin type. I don't like the factory locking mechanism for the wrist pin either. Am I splitting hairs yeah, they probably never fail but I like something I KNOW is secured, not just a little clip that goes in a land. Additionally, something with a dish maybe could have accommodate perhaps those 248 heads at lower compression? Could I have made up the difference to use 87 octane gas? Maybe? I understand the smaller intake valve on the 248 heads is what helps contribute to the lower end torque (higher vacuum at lower RPM).
Matched combustion chambers: I am mainly doing this for fun, it's probably splitting hairs but I wish I'd measured the combustion chambers and matched them all to the same size. I went to trouble to polish them but didn't take time to match their size.
Tune with a wideband: make sure it's one you can do an open air calibration on. I lost a LOT of tuning due to issues with a pre calibrated sensor setup. Then had to buy an entire second wideband setup after they wouldn't warranty mine. I also chased my tail trying to tune part throttle cruise w/ narrow bands. Best to just use a wideband for the whole thing.
@Kreativestreet Thanks, would have been fun to chat with you prior to my build. Roger helped a LOT. I was amazed. His cost for the parts was peanuts compared to the help he gave me.
I didn't want a high lift cam. I specifically asked for something otherwise from him. I wanted dual valve springs too, not for the extra pressure but for redundancy. I actually wanted dual valve springs with a lower pressure if possible to reduce rotational load if any. I know that's not why most people buy them.
I felt more comfortable with a solid lifter guide versus those plastic trays. I hear lots of people have no issue with the plastic trays, but I sleep better at night knowing I have beefier guide for the lifters. Only trade off is I cannot easily swap a cam w/o removing the heads now. I personally really don't like the idea of the plastic trays functioning as a lifter guide much at all. I've had at least one immediate friend who burnt up his Gen III because of lifter failure. I personally, think those plastic guides don't stabilize the lifter like a metal one would. Maybe it's just me... but plastic? Really GM?
A failure to me, may mean loosing the entire truck with what I do or a VERY expensive recovery so much of my build focused around building in extra safeguards. Had I better spec'ed the parts it wouldn't have been quite as expensive for those little upgrades.
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strutaeng
Full Access Member
About the LS1 crank: I think they had some cross drilling, but other than than that, no issues compared to the truck cranks...as long as you get whatever crank balanced to your rotating assembly. At least up to the 1,000 HP levels
Like, mixing and matching OEM cranks to different OEM pistons or aftermarket. I.e, using a 5.3 or 5.7 crank with 6.0 pistons, or vice versa. That definitely needs balanced to the proper bob weight.
Like, mixing and matching OEM cranks to different OEM pistons or aftermarket. I.e, using a 5.3 or 5.7 crank with 6.0 pistons, or vice versa. That definitely needs balanced to the proper bob weight.
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Mudsport96
Full Access Member
@Matthew Jeschke , A few little tidbits. The vette manifolds flow marginally better. But, the truck manifolds don't start becoming a significant restriction until 450 to 500 hp on a NA engine. Dyno comparisons have been done between truck and Camaro manifolds ( I know not the same as Vettes) and there is less than a 5 hp difference. That can be a difference in weather between the pulls.
As for Pistons, Rings, Rods, and Crank.
All the factory LQ4 stuff is sturdy enough for anything we would use them for in these trucks/SUVs. The current top limit for a Stock Bottom End LQ4 ( Pistons, rings, rods and bolts, BEARINGS, Balancer and crank), is almost 1500hp and over 1300 lbft of torque at almost 30psi of boost. And even then the guy is fairly sure it was a tune issue that killed it. He think he ramped timing in too soon and spiked the torque too low, thus folding a rod.
I'm not telling ya that you shouldn't build it the way you want. But, think of all the other things you could do with the saved money...
As for Pistons, Rings, Rods, and Crank.
All the factory LQ4 stuff is sturdy enough for anything we would use them for in these trucks/SUVs. The current top limit for a Stock Bottom End LQ4 ( Pistons, rings, rods and bolts, BEARINGS, Balancer and crank), is almost 1500hp and over 1300 lbft of torque at almost 30psi of boost. And even then the guy is fairly sure it was a tune issue that killed it. He think he ramped timing in too soon and spiked the torque too low, thus folding a rod.
I'm not telling ya that you shouldn't build it the way you want. But, think of all the other things you could do with the saved money...
Attachments
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Matthew Jeschke
Full Access Member
This build has been INSANELY fun. Tuning can get a bit frustrating with price of gas right now but still is great fun. I think only thing complaining is my wallet 
Engine isn't a WOT screamer. However, climbing is insane. I can climb stuff at part throttle that I used to have to use 4wd low in the 5.3L and nearly floor it.
I was also getting better gas mileage in mountains and city than the 5.3L up until a few months ago. I'm not sure what's up. It went from 14 to 15mph down to 12.5 ug.
The interesting thing, I weighted my 5.3L pistons and compared to the 6.0L factory pistons. There was a decent weight difference. However, I couldn't find anywhere where the factory balanced things or used any different casting on the 6.0L than the 5.3L. It really threw me for a loop. I had it balanced just to be safe but some builders told me they just throw them together.
All my efforts to make a VERY quiet valve train and balance the rotating assembly maybe paying off in my knock sensitivity? I did SLIGHTLY desensitize the knock sensors. I get virtually no knock... Although the little I do get I think maybe burst knock which I'm going to disable in a couple runs. My next tuning run is to test smoothing I did to spark map after my adjustments, just to double check. Then I'll disable burst knock (predictive knock).
My concern had actually been, when they balanced my pistons they took material off the bottom side of the piston, immediately below the combustion surface. I got a little worried that might make the piston more prone to melting (should I do something stupid / run to lean / ping / etc while tuning). I had wondered if they made an aftermarket piston might have a special area that could be used to remove material for balancing. Also I had bought new OEM pistons. For same money or even less, I could have bought new aftermarket pistons with rings.
Engine isn't a WOT screamer. However, climbing is insane. I can climb stuff at part throttle that I used to have to use 4wd low in the 5.3L and nearly floor it.
I was also getting better gas mileage in mountains and city than the 5.3L up until a few months ago. I'm not sure what's up. It went from 14 to 15mph down to 12.5 ug.
It's splitting hairs using the LS1 crank... I had seen some on craigslist for like $40. I should have snagged one.
The interesting thing, I weighted my 5.3L pistons and compared to the 6.0L factory pistons. There was a decent weight difference. However, I couldn't find anywhere where the factory balanced things or used any different casting on the 6.0L than the 5.3L. It really threw me for a loop. I had it balanced just to be safe but some builders told me they just throw them together.
All my efforts to make a VERY quiet valve train and balance the rotating assembly maybe paying off in my knock sensitivity? I did SLIGHTLY desensitize the knock sensors. I get virtually no knock... Although the little I do get I think maybe burst knock which I'm going to disable in a couple runs. My next tuning run is to test smoothing I did to spark map after my adjustments, just to double check. Then I'll disable burst knock (predictive knock).
My concern had actually been, when they balanced my pistons they took material off the bottom side of the piston, immediately below the combustion surface. I got a little worried that might make the piston more prone to melting (should I do something stupid / run to lean / ping / etc while tuning). I had wondered if they made an aftermarket piston might have a special area that could be used to remove material for balancing. Also I had bought new OEM pistons. For same money or even less, I could have bought new aftermarket pistons with rings.
strutaeng
Full Access Member
I'm also building a 6.0 LS. It started as an LQ9 that had severe damage. Project sat for years. Finally took it to a machine shop and block was thrashed. So I picked up an L96 bare block, which had been bored 0.020" over. Crank was also bad, so I picked up a used 5.3 crank and just had it polished.
I had the machine shop balance it but it wouldn't balance due to insufficient weight on the counterweights, so they had to drill and install those heavyweight slugs.
What I was told is unless you are using factory parts that crank/displacement combination you are okay, otherwise mixing and matching will require rebalancing. Obviously, anything aftermarket will also require it.
I had the machine shop balance it but it wouldn't balance due to insufficient weight on the counterweights, so they had to drill and install those heavyweight slugs.
What I was told is unless you are using factory parts that crank/displacement combination you are okay, otherwise mixing and matching will require rebalancing. Obviously, anything aftermarket will also require it.
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OP
Matthew Jeschke
Full Access Member
Interesting! What's an L96? Is that a newer direct injection setup? That would be SWEEEEEET Direction injection is AWESOME other than injectors cost a bloody fortune.
I'm certain you're right on rod & crank combination. The difference was quite a lot for 5.3 pistons versus 6.0.. something like 10 grams per piston or more. I just for life of me couldn't see where the factory accounts for weight difference. They must shave a little off the crank counterbalances depending on which piston & rod combination they use.
Getting balanced was cheap at any rate. I don't really know why somebody wouldn't do it. My engine runs SOOOOOO smooth!
strutaeng
Full Access Member
No, the L96 was a Gen IV series. Had VVT, but no DoD/AFM. It was the replacement of the LY6, but flex fuel capable. There's also something similar, but was set up for LP, LC8 I think? All of these were installed on the HD trucks and vans (8 lug).
The difference between the Gen III and IV is the knock sensors, camshaft position sensor and reluctor wheel count. The later can be adapted to the earlier. Aside from other differences like intakes and heads.
Mudsport96
Full Access Member
Depending on how much they had to remove, it would be negligible to structural integrity. You want to remove weight as close to center as possible. And typically not much has to be removed to get a set balanced well anyway. I did a first gen 350 with a meat scale and a die grinder darn near 25 years ago. Built that engine out of a spare parts bucket. Lasted 10 years in a dump truck that ran around carrying anywhere from 16,000 to 26,000 lbs daily. Only reason it came out, was because the owner finally found a cheap replacement big block to put back in it.
I'm sure you chose a reputable shop, so I wouldn't worry too much.
