Bilsteins or Monroe Shocks?

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wardinbb

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Two of us here are trying to find the optimum luxury ride, to the degree that as much as that is possible.

YUK99 and I are looking for 'smooth as glass over washboard' as he put it and I'm dealing with 'smooth over Mexican cobblestones.'

I don't think there's much question that the name brand shocks function properly on normal/regular highway and city conditions.

There's bound to be an optimum combination of tire, wheel, shock and suspension set-up that will get us there.
 

wardinbb

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All Ya All FYI

Got the tires, much improved, went with BFGoodrich P265/75R/16, which is just one bump up from stock. The slight increase in aspect ratio will help. My Bilsteins have about 40k on them, the whole ride feels better due to the tires so I don't know about the shocks anymore. But here's an interesting exerpt of info regarding Monroe and Rancho's; (the last 2 paragraphs brings it home)

Trials and Tribulations

In the case of the Reflex shock, the concept was a patented new valve design by Karl Kazmirski, manager Adjustable Damping and Springs, and senior technician Charles Tyrell. Core Engineering began working on his idea in Spring 1997. They built take-apart shocks with standard components and machined prototype valves in the on-site machine shop. These prototypes were tuned on a shock dynamometer and then given the all-important vehicle dynamics test to determine if the difference could be felt. (Tenneco has its own in-house training program for its ride engineers to develop sensitivity to vehicle dynamics.)

Once this test was passed, Aftermarket Engineering became involved with the project and engineers from all disciplines began six months of design iterations. Over 500 prototypes were built, taking into account such issues as manufacturability, assembly, materials and durability. Of important note here is that engineers at Tenneco change disciplines regularly to broaden their backgrounds.

In what was perhaps the greatest engineering trial for the technology, it was decided that the valve design would go into limited production. In addition to its Monroe brand, Tenneco also sells high performance truck shocks under the "Rancho" name. In Fall 1998, the Reflex valve actually made its debut in the Rancho RSX-Reflex shock. Since they would be produced in much smaller volumes than the full Monroe Reflex line, this gave the engineering team the chance to pilot the manufacturing process. All the manufacturing issues were thereby solved before gearing up for larger production volumes. Tenneco's Cozad, NE, plant was chosen for the pilot because it was already producing light truck shocks. Given that almost every light truck shock uses the same 1 3/8-inch bore, it was possible to use common tooling, thereby saving time and money.

Materials technology was also an important part of the development process. Rather than using a chrome-plated piston rod as they did in the Rancho shock, Tenneco engineers chose to nitro-carbonize the rod for the Monroe model. This process gives the rod a greater corrosion resistance, as well as being more environmentally sound. The valve itself is made from powdered metal and Tenneco employs its proprietary "Fluon" (a fiberglass-Teflon material) band around the piston.

The Technology

Reflex shocks are twin-tube, nitrogen-charged hydraulic shock absorbers. This, in itself, is not really different than most shocks on production vehicles. However, Reflex shocks have a much stiffer compression resistance, giving a firmer ride, which is ideal for good handling. The caveat with this setup is usually that stiff shocks make for a harsh ride on rough roads. Given that Reflex shocks were originally developed for light trucks, this would appear to be a great contradiction of purpose. Welcome to the challenge faced by most ride-control engineers. How do you combine sports car handling with luxury car comfort? Even worse, how do you do this for a truck?

The solution is a new valve in the Reflex shock that opens and closes by way of a small spring. Under smooth-road driving (which mainly generates cornering and braking loads on the shock), the valve stays closed, keeping the shock stiff, which controls body roll and pitch. But when the vehicle hits a bump, the high compression force on the shock (above 1.5 g) causes the spring to compress, opening the valve in 15 milliseconds and providing more oil flow for a lower resistance. The once-stiff shock becomes much softer, hence the elusive comfortable ride.
 
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DBLTAP

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Just FYI Rancho has a $50.00 rebate on a complete set of RS5000's
 

99Yuk

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Wow! Good information and research WardinBB!

I'm glad that just buying tires helped you out. Now I'm wondering if the Bilsteins are soft enough for me, based on your feedback. Please keep us/me posted on what you think.

So I went to the Monroe webpage and it wasn't imediately clear to me, but doesn't the sensatrak have the same valve as the reflex? Honestly, I couldn't tell. The other difference is the size of the tube, the reflex is larger around.

And I've been thinking that because the current monroe sensatraks are only 8 months old or so, I should be able to claim warranty. But how do I prove that there is a problem with them? Because they are gas charged, there is no fluid leak that I could point to and say, see, it bad! Sigh.. What are the telltale signs that gas charged shocks are blown?

Thanks for the writeup WardinBB. Good stuff!

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 AM ----------

I have the Rancho RS5000 all the way around my truck and I have no complaints. I've had them on for right around 2 years and so far they have held up excellent. The ride isn't too stiff or too soft, I would call it a happy medium. They have good highway manners and in the city they ain't too bad either.

I've never driven on Monroe's so I cannot compare the two.

Thanks for you feedback! I was wondering what you had thought of them on gravel roads? You know that washboard effect that can make your rear tires go squirley as they bounce so much over the ripples that they lose contact with the road and end up going sideways on you? That's what I'm dealing with. I figure that softer shocks would deal with that, and my kidneys. I know, I could drive slower, but honestly, who drives at 60kph when you could do 100kph and get home faster. I'm hungry after a days work, and I wanna get home to my supper!

---------- Post added at 08:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

Just FYI Rancho has a $50.00 rebate on a complete set of RS5000's

Hey, thanks for the heads up! If I decide to go Rancho's that could be a bonus!
 

wardinbb

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YUK99 .....Yep, you got that right.
"Both the Monroe Sensatrac and the Reflex are a similar design, a twin tube low pressure unit. The Sensatrac is Monroe's older design, the Reflex uses more modern technology to do the same thing as a Sensatrac."

As far as your rear wheel hop goes, I get a bit of that around one corner going to my place in Mexico. It's a combo of stuff, like road surface, tire pressure, leaf spring bushings, rear shocks and most of all, a staight axel.

I had some of the bushings in the front replaced in MX and they made a noticable difference. The Hoe used to level out on the highway at about 76mph. Coming back from the front end job, my govenor kicked in at 100mph, as the ride was smooth and I didn't have a clue I was going at that speed. But that's a highway condition, not a cobblestone/washboard deal.

With the existing Bilsteins I have w/ some 40k on them, I'm getting impact to the cab and dash. Also the only weight in the Hoe is me, it always rides better with weight. So I'm thinkin' body mounts and more bushings to help smooth things out and perhaps in combo with the Reflex shocks I can get closer to optimum.

The Touareg suspension was perfect in MX, so how do you get a straight axel rear end and torsion bar front end to act like a 4 corner independent spring suspension with air shocks? Maybe a silk purse outta a pig's ear.
 

wardinbb

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The Bottom Line

I found this at the Shockwarehouse.com . It pretty much sez it all in one place!

Q. Changing the shocks / struts on my vehicle will make it ride "better" or "softer".....

A. How a vehicle "rides", or "feels by the seat of your pants", depends on many different things.


1. Tire pressure: (make sure yours is set at what your owners manual says, NOT what the tires says).
2. Wheelbase: (short wheelbase vehicles tend to be more rough).
3. Tire & Rim Size: (Shorter or less forgiving side walls (low profile tires) tend to be more rough).
4. Road Conditions: (Rough roads are rough roads, some roads are worse than others).
5. Suspension type: (Torsion bars and leaf springs can be less forgiving than coil springs).
6. Using performance or lowering springs: (Typically these would be stiffer and have a different rate).
7. Lifting a vehicle: (With stiffer springs and tighter suspension parts).

Shocks are only ONE part of a suspension. What you "feel" is a combination of the list above, and other things, including all the other suspension parts, from swaybars, springs, frame-type, etc. Shocks (or Struts) are only ONE part of the total suspension.

Remember: a shock or strut's PRIMARY function is to hold the tire in contact with the road. Just changing the shocks / struts is not likely going to change what the vehicle manufacturer built into a vehicle's characteristics. Car companies spend MILLIONS of dollars to make a vehicle feel a certain way when driving. Spending a few dollars on shocks is not likely to alter what they have done.

How a vehicle rides is something that cannot be "plotted or graphed" scientifically, it is a matter of opinion. There is no 'measurement' or 'scale' for 'ride'. 10 people can drive a vehicle, 5 will says it's a Lincoln ride, the other 5 will say it's a dump truck. It's up to the individual.

We do not recommend buying shocks or struts specifically for trying to change the "ride" of a vehicle, that is not what shocks or struts do. The products we carry typically are designed to give a vehicle better handling, control, and safety. Will they maybe change the "ride", what you feel in some way? Probably. Can that be predicted ahead of time? No.

We know it's a tough decision sometimes to choose the right shock. But we want you to purchase a product for the right reasons, and get something that's right for you and your driving.




Q. Shocks and struts have a strap on the them to help with installation....

A. The straps serve only one purpose, and that is to fit the unit in the box. All the manufacturers use certain size boxes. If the boxes they use are, say, 20 inches long, and a strut or shock is 29 inches long, that unit will get a strap to compress it to fit in the box. And if the shock is shorter than 20 inches, then a strap is not needed, since it fits in the box with room to spare.

Sure, sometimes they can help with an installation, but that was not the intended use of the strap.



Q. Heavy Duty Shocks always say Heavy Duty on them...

A. The term "Heavy Duty" is a generic one. It is our opinion that a shock that has more dampening power and durability over an OE or low pressure design unit, is for heavy-duty use. To us, that means any shock that is a monotube design. CLICK HERE to find out why monotube shocks have better dampening, run cooler, and last longer, that's a matter of science. Any company can slap the word 'heavy-duty' on their packaging, but that term does not give you any facts.

Note that not every vehicle needs a 'heavy-duty' shock either. There is nothing wrong with using a low pressure gas unit if light-duty use is all you need.



Q. Heavy Duty shocks have a thicker body diameter than a light duty shock......


A. Some shocks represented as a 'heavy duty' shock will be a twin-tube low pressure design. Those kinds of shocks get a lot of cavitation and heat, so shock manufacturers give them a large body resevoir to hold extra oil, to try and keep them cooler (such as a Monroe Magnum). Monotube shocks are a more modern design, and do not generate as much heat and aeration, so those kinds of shocks do not need the extra oil, and are slimmer in size / diameter.



Q. The tire store in town says I have to change my shocks / struts every 30,000 miles...

A. The shocks and struts we carry in most cases are considered an upgrade by the U.S Government, over the stock, O.E. suspension units. They can be changed at anytime, even right after you purchase a new vehicle. If the vehicle you drive is not up to your expectations, or un-controllable, you may want to consider better parts for your suspension to improve it's handling and safety. Also, you may have special needs for your vehicle that may not have been incorporated into it's design, such as some off-road driving, or towing.

Also, despite what some people say, there is no time limit, by years or miles, on when you have to change a unit. Though we do recommend, as part of normal maintenance, to routinely give your suspension a visual inspection to make sure it is in good, safe, working order.



Q. Shocks / Struts will hold up my vehicle or change it's height....

A. Shocks (or Struts) do not really hold up a vehicle. For example, if you ever took shocks off your pickup-truck or RWD car before, you know when you set it down off the jack, it sits pretty much the same as it did before you took the shock off. What "holds" the vehicle up is the coil springs, leaf springs, or in some cases, a torsion bar.

There are shocks which can help, or add additional support, such as Monroe Load-levelers or Monroe Air-shocks. But no shock (outside of some kind of racing unit) is really designed to support a 3000-5000 lb. vehicle. There is a limit to how much a shock can help (for instance, just changing shocks on a half-ton pickup truck will not automatically make it a one-ton model.)

The primary uses of these type products is to keep the rear of the vehicle level with the front, so you have a more balanced suspension while driving or towing.

(On strut installations, it is important you get the springs seated correctly, or that can effect installation, and may effect height. Follow your repair manual's instructions carefully, every vehicle is different).



Q. The more gas pressure inside a shock / strut, the stiffer the valving or ride will be...

A. That's not really the way it works. The Nitrogen gas only prevents aeration (foaming bubbles) inside the unit. How soft or stiff a shock / strut is, that is determined by valving.

Aeration inside a shock or strut 'kills' the dampening ability of the unit, so the higher the pressure (for instance, Bilsteins have 360 psi ), the less chance you will get any aeration and heat, and less chance the units dampening ability will fade.

Valving in a shock or strut is calculated using "Rebound" and "Compression" figures. While shock manufactuers rarely publish these figures, their engineers work hard to come up with the best valving for maximum control and performance.
 

99Yuk

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Well, today I returned the Monroe Sensitrak's under warranty, and picked up some Monroe Reflex. I figured that I'd give those a try. The local parts store don't carry Bilsteins at all, I did find a Canadian distributor for them, they were only $75 each including shipping.
http://www.bilsteincanada.com/product_info.php?products_id=1996(Ya I know, wrong pic, but the part number is right.)

I didn't want to wait for the Bilsteins to arrive, and because the Sensitraks were under warranty, I only had to pay the difference in price to goto the Reflex. And I got paid back the labour for the Sensitrak under warranty as well. So I took the labour warranty money and ordered a K&N drop in replacement air filter.


Thanks to all who took part in the quest to find a softer riding shock. :Handshake:
 

wardinbb

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Shocking Fact about Shocks?

Greetings all,

Here's a tid bit of info I found when reading about the Ford F150 Raptor:

"The Raptor's impressive suspension travel (11.2-inches front, 12.1-inches rear – about double what you’d find in a standard pickup) is the key enabler to this type performance. SVT nearly doubled the F-150's stock suspension travel by using a wider track, thereby increasing the distance of the suspension's articulation. SVT engineers relied on off-road specialist FOX Racing Shox to develop the truck's front and rear shock absorbers. Standard production shock absorbers fail after a few miles of washboard roads or fast travel over rough terrain Not the special heavy-duty units in the Raptor."

So hey, 99YUK, this may be why your new (first pair) gave out on you. Let's see what happens with your second pair under the same driving conditions.

So since I spent 6 months on Mex cobblestones with Bilsteins (and 80lb tires!)and my Hoe is creakin' and groanin', I'm ready for the Monroe Reflex, but not if they are gonna crap out.

Let us know Yuk.
 

99Yuk

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I didn't think that I would have an update so soon, but here it is.

Both of the Monroe reflex front shocks that were just put in are blown. They both make clunking noises, and it rides like sh&t again. If was good for a week or so.
Turns out after some googling that there are two part numbers for reflex shocks that go on our trucks. (Special thanks to Summit Racing webpage to clarify the difference).

When I called up Partssource.ca to order new shocks, I said that I want monroe reflex, they said ok, and soon they were at our garage. Ok, fine.
Turns out that they sent me the 2WD shocks, not the 4WD shocks. The 2WD shocks didn't make it past a week.
It took this long to order in the proper shocks from them. They were installed this afternoon while doing my oil change.

Here is a screenshot from the SR webpage that shows the proper part numbers.
picture.jpg
I have no idea what the difference is, but I hope that they last a bit longer than the first batch.

If these blow up, then FI, I'm getting Bilsteins. and then if I end up getting bilsteins, I have the same problem, they have different part numbers for shocks for our trucks. I know that perople here like the B's. But can they tell us what kind of B's they have on? Comfort?, normal?, HD? Part numbers?
 

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